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Post by ltrain38 on Dec 14, 2012 13:14:02 GMT -5
Maybe this is just a cruel joke..  ..... Or maybe not.......  www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/basketball/mass_exodus_ob38Qg4ciz8fSfFsKBVJTLThe schools of keenest interest to the seven are Butler, Dayton, St. Louis and Xavier, with Creighton, Gonzaga, St. Mary’s and La Salle also on the radar.[/quote Yeah, I heard they'll all come to together to buy us a new arena as a sort of "welcome to the league" gift, too. At least we don't think we've earned a place, like the St Joe's (PA) fans. |
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Post by luhoopsfan on Dec 14, 2012 13:22:32 GMT -5
I'm guessing the Catholic 7 take Xavier, SLU and Creighton to make it a 10 team league so they don't have to split the money as many ways. Their TV market then becomes NY/NJ, Philly, D.C., Cincy, Chicago, Milwaukee, Saint Louis, Boston(ish)....and Omaha. Woudl be able to sell decent TV Rights for hoops in those markets and only split 10 ways. There's no other real major market they are missing that would fit their profile of Catholic Schools unless they swap Creighton for Butler.
LS and SJU will never be in the same elague as Villanova, certainly not now where they will have a lot of sway in any decision being made because they are the lone rep in the #3 market for the league.
I do have to say, whcih of the Catholic 7 schools have a dramatically better ON CAMPUS facility than LS and SJU other than Villanova. The on-campus stuff at St Johns, Seton Hall, Georgetown, Providence and Marquette is basically nothing. They all play in the local city arena.
Carnesseca Court is basically Tom Gola Arena; Walsh gym holds 2,600 people, The AlMcGuire CEnter is a fine practice facility but I don't think we'd be satisfied with it if that's what a TGA renovation turned out, Providence about the same and so on.
My question is, and I'm serious, the talk about "sub-par facilities" compared to the Big East isn't completely true. Hayman is a really quite a practice facility when you think in terms of have 3 full courts to practice, most practice facilities only have 2 and the men and women need to scheduel around each other.
I'm not trumpeting TGA as some great facility, trust me, I hate it, but the difference these rpograms have is that they play in NBA Arenas OFF CAMPUS....we used to do that at the Spectrum and the A10 mandated on-campus facilities.
Most of the time those teams are playing in front of 6,000 fans in 18,000 seat arenas. If we were in that league and played Georgetown at the WF Center, I'm guessing there would be about 6,000 fans there as well. So really, we're not all that different.
I'm sure I will be berrated for evn SUGGESTING that the facilities at La Salle are comparable to those schools, but really what I'm also saying is that SLU and Xavier probably are far BETTER than those 7 schools in terms of facilities. Of the 7, Nova probably has the best on campus and it really isn't close.
What really chaps my ass, though, is that the 1st time (when Hayman was originally conceived) we planned on having a full-on Arena on campus, but catered to the Big5...the 2nd time, we had a really good (possibly great) design for TGA and for some unknown reason got the abommonation that we now have and paid MORE for it.
Does this mean we don't need to update what we have? absolutely not - my ideal scenario is to renovate Gola (again) and construct a separate practice facility as part of the Hayman Center...by sacrificing some parking spaces next to the entrance area we now have. There's plenty of room there.
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Post by coqui900 on Dec 14, 2012 15:24:34 GMT -5
There's no way we'll be in this new league. Nor will St. Joe's. Villanova wants to have this new league to themselves in the Philadelphia market. Look at what happened with Temple. Temple's membership more or less came down whether or not Villanova wanted to make their football team 1-A or not. I would be absolutely shocked if St. Joe's was anything more than an afterthought for this league, too.
We'll lose a few of the best programs but they'll be replaced with good programs right behind us. I think we'll see a weird CAA/A-10 mash-up with a few MAAC teams thrown in the mix, too.
I could see it as: Duquesne, Fordham, George Washington, us, UMass, URI, Richmond, St. Joe's, VCU, St. Bonnie's, George Mason, Northeastern, Hofstra, Charleston, Siena, Drexel (with other schools like Albany, Stony Brook, Manhattan, Iona, Delaware, James Madison also in the mix.)
It is what it is. There's a major restructuring going on. We'll be fine no matter how it shakes out.
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Post by lasallescreamer on Dec 14, 2012 15:40:24 GMT -5
Danrosey: your angst is well taken; but there is reality. First, if we r in w STJ, VCU and UMASS all will be fine. If UMASS and VCU leave, more of a struggle. But I would rather form a firm conf with schools that can grow their program-like Iona and Sienna, and Mason rather than hold out hope of being in on a super conf that we do not get an invite to, leaving us to scramble. We need to be proactive-form alliance with core schools like STJ, St Bonny. Duq., and reach out to others like Rhody and Richmond while feeling out Iona, Sienna and Drexel. We also need to know what VCU will do and if UMASS is out the door. I trust that Fordham is sticking around.
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Post by Shout out to my Cousin Bern on Dec 14, 2012 15:51:02 GMT -5
Screamer - I certainly see your point.
I just don't see how the scenarios being thrown around here are feasible. There is major $$ tied up in each of the conferences and it's not a simple switch if one school wants to leave a conference for another.
Just because there is now this void of a league for the 7 Catholic Big East schools, doesn't mean any of the A-10 schools mentioned are going to be able to immediately leave to join the 7. Or that CAA teams are going to be able to leave to join the remaining A-10.
For example, Butler and VCU. They JUST switched conferences and there was a $-cost associated with that. I would just be surprised if their admins had a taste to switch again.
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Post by lasallescreamer on Dec 14, 2012 18:22:16 GMT -5
I do not know enough to comment on the financials; but the worst for the A-10 core is uncertainty. If Butler or VCU announce that they r leaving in 2-3 years, that impacts recruiting bec s/a wants to know about the conf before he signs. If letting a school or 2 go on amicable terms meant that we could get other schools to commit to us RIGHT NOW, I see a benefit to that. Stability is important for LSU. Georgetown can move around and can still recruit; LSU and my core of A-10 teams cannot asa our s/a could be attracted to our conf-but they need to know what conf is.
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Post by scarletexplorer on Dec 14, 2012 19:09:27 GMT -5
Something no one's asked yet—if the Big East implodes, does Temple come back to the A-10 with its tail between its legs? This of course providing that we land somewhere ourselves.
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Post by lasallescreamer on Dec 14, 2012 19:23:48 GMT -5
Would the Big Mess permit Temple to return to A-10 for BB while staying for football? And why would they agree-Temple BB profile is high while FB seems to be a mess again.
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Post by Gnocchi on Dec 15, 2012 0:59:09 GMT -5
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Post by sweat83 on Dec 15, 2012 7:43:01 GMT -5
I am trying to figure out what is so special about the remaining Big East schools? Watching Gtown score 40 points a game? Watching Villanova lose to Columbia? St John's, Seton Hall, Providence, Depaul. Marquette? What happens if none of the A10 schools decide to leave? Let them come to us! We have the upper hand right now. What are they going to do, form a 7 team league? And as mentioned earlier, their facilities are not all that great, and their fan base is not what it used to be. It's basically an average conference....if that! The only thing they have going for them right now is name brand recognition. That's it. Big East Basketball. But without the Pitt/Syracuse/UConns of the world, it is not much of a Big East. And the recruiting edge is not going to be there anymore due to the simple fact that the other conferences have expanded, and that's where the 5 star recruits are going to end up. A10 should just stick to its guns, and take in who they want.
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Post by theneumann64 on Dec 15, 2012 8:12:11 GMT -5
Sweat, I think you certainly have a point. It's the name "Big East" (which will probably be gone) and the fact that they will be poaching our top teams. Those 7 schools on their own aren't the be all and end all. And Marquette, who is one of the main attractions, has been in the Big East less than 10 years. DePaul is only there because they were trying to save Big East football, the basketball team would be a bottom feeder in the A-10. Georgetown I think is still a big attraction. The 2 NY teams haven't been totally relevant in 20 years, although St. John's playing at the Garden is a big attraction, at least for me. Providence is old world Big East, but they've been bad a long time. And Villanova, while down, was in the final 4 just a few years ago.
Certainly a mixed bag, but couple that with Xavier, Dayton, SLU, and probably Butler and who knows who else, and it's still a blow, although that is a point well taken.
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Post by luhoopsfan on Dec 15, 2012 8:12:32 GMT -5
GREAT post. What's the difference between St Johns, Seton Hall, Providence and DePaul and La Salle, St. Joes, St Bonnie's and Fordham? Not a whole hell of a lot when compared independent of league affiliation
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2012 8:55:40 GMT -5
Your statement is true for all A10 schools, except St Louis and Butler, who probably just wanted to be in any high profile conference. They don't have A10 affinity. If Ricky was still alive, he'd be clamoring to take SLU to the highest bidder. And if you go to their message board, I'm sure their most vocal supporters are still scarrying that torch.
And if you get a few middle of the pack teams like Richmond/Xavier/Dayton they may want to be in a conference with a bigger footprint or $, then they will go for the $ like they always do. But it has to be perceived as more than $1 m over 5 years because they have to come up with the exit payment. Temple/Charlotte is an example of what could happen to Xavier, although Temple did it as a we wannabe football school and Charlotte is becoming a wannabe football school.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2012 9:05:32 GMT -5
Your statement is true for all A10 schools, except St Louis and Butler, who probably just wanted to be in any high profile conference. They don't have A10 affinity. If Ricky was still alive, he'd be clamoring to take SLU to the highest bidder. And if you go to their message board, I'm sure their most vocal supporters are still scarrying that torch. Yep, very predictable. They (the fans) have always loathed this conference because Ricky did. So even when it became the greatest it ever was, in 2012, and even with Rick gone they are still clamoring for the way out. Their only hope is that X doesn't leave without them or else they will really be screwed. I don't know how the two presidents get along but SLU can play the Jesuit card and try to make sure Xavier either sticks or splits. |
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Post by ltrain38 on Dec 15, 2012 10:15:56 GMT -5
I wonder how these programs will hold up in the future, without the Big East brand, without the perception of a being among the six high major conferences and without the revenues shared with a football conference. I realize there is a lot of history with these programs, but is it unreasonable to expect that they'll see some sort of decline in the quality of their best programs, even Georgetown or Marquette? I still think they have the prestige now to pull from our league and I don't see us stopping that, but if Xavier, Creighton, Butler, VCU, Gonzaga stayed away, what exactly will guarantee that the Big East seven have a good league ten years from now? Even if those two programs and until recently, Nova, put a better product on the floor than the A-10 now, four of them clearly don't and I don't know whether the rest can sustain it in the new alignment.
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Post by Gnocchi on Dec 15, 2012 11:22:28 GMT -5
I am trying to figure out what is so special about the remaining Big East schools? Watching Gtown score 40 points a game? Watching Villanova lose to Columbia? St John's, Seton Hall, Providence, Depaul. Marquette? What happens if none of the A10 schools decide to leave? Let them come to us! We have the upper hand right now. Saw an interesting wrinkle of that on the Dayton board. What if the top 7 A-10 programs punt the A-10 to form a new league and don't give an invite to the bottom of the Seven Orphans, Seton Hall, Providence and De Paul. Far-fetched but makes your point about how little some of the Orphans really bring to the table. Here's another angle that could blow up the exit strategy from the Big East: “We’re Georgetown,” Thompson told reporters following practice at McDonough Arena. “Go down to the equipment room down the hall, and every jersey in there says ‘Georgetown.’ That’s who we are. People are clumping the basketball schools together. [But] we are Georgetown. And I think that we are unique and different than every other school in many different ways.”The story for public consumption going around is that G-town's prez is having trouble abandoning its tradition in the Big East. More likely, Georgetown is trying to sniff out a Notre Dame-like b-ball invite from the ACC, replacing Maryland in the DC market and continuing the rivalry with Syracuse, et al. May be a long shot but stranger things have happened in the conference realignment shuffle. Just ask One-and Dunphy... |
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Post by las71 on Dec 15, 2012 11:42:35 GMT -5
Sweat. You make a great point . The problem is convincing Xavier, Butler etc. that they are bargaining from a position of strength. If they simply refuse to accept the big east invite and tha A10 counters with an offer to take the 3 or 4 top big east teams what can they do? If A 10 teams refuse to leave, where do the big east teams go next? They can go after Creighton and Gonzaga but that will be increase travel costs. And Gnocchi may be right that Georgetown's reluctance to leave may have more to do with looking for a better deal than a sentimental attachment to what's left of the big east. Ultimately, if our top programs stay, the 7 or 6 schools left may have no other option but to join us. Hopefully they will call the big east's bluff.
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Post by stlexplorer on Dec 15, 2012 16:43:43 GMT -5
Name recognition, program history, venue, viewer appeal for TV
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Post by coqui900 on Dec 15, 2012 17:33:25 GMT -5
It's pretty clear that it's every man for himself in college basketball right now. I'd rather be in a conference then be a lone wolf like The Catholic League.
I think we'll be fine. We're not going to end up in the Great West Conference. The A-10 could be weakened but it might not be. We could end up in the MAAC or CAA but with a few A-10 programs.
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Post by scarletexplorer on Dec 15, 2012 18:50:54 GMT -5
Wherever we end up, we still have to win games be it the MAAC, the A-10, the Super Catholic Fun Conference, what have you. At a certain point, we just have to stop worrying about it and focus on getting better. Butler was in the miserable Horizon conference, but was the national runner up two years in a row, and they just knocked off Indiana tonight. At a certain point, conferences don't matter. The fight continues tonight. Beat Bucknell.
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Post by calsufan on Dec 15, 2012 21:28:20 GMT -5
A couple things. There's absolutely no way, NONE, that the ex Big East 7 are going to join the A-10. It's all about the money and they will get much less if it has to be split 21 or 22 ways. TV will not give a league that big a huge contract. Not when there's so many unknown teams or underperforming teams (and yes, we're one of those unknown \ underperforming teams unfortunately).
Cache also has a lot to do with this whole conference realignment. The Catholic 7 have it. Xavier, Butler, VCU and to a lesser extent St. Louis and Dayton have it. Depending upon how big the Catholic 7 want the conference to be (again because of the $ they'll have to share), the A-10 will get raided.
ESPN and possibly CBS, NBC or Fox will help determine who goes where. At the end of the day, it's all about the dineros.
We're like a homeless man with his face pressed against the window watching all of the fat cats dine. Our shipped sailed when we settled for Tom Gola Arena. The only thing we can do now is stand there and look through the window.
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Post by goexplorers on Dec 16, 2012 6:14:56 GMT -5
A couple things. There's absolutely no way, NONE, that the ex Big East 7 are going to join the A-10. It's all about the money and they will get much less if it has to be split 21 or 22 ways. TV will not give a league that big a huge contract. Not when there's so many unknown teams or underperforming teams (and yes, we're one of those unknown \ underperforming teams unfortunately). Cache also has a lot to do with this whole conference realignment. The Catholic 7 have it. Xavier, Butler, VCU and to a lesser extent St. Louis and Dayton have it. Depending upon how big the Catholic 7 want the conference to be (again because of the $ they'll have to share), the A-10 will get raided. ESPN and possibly CBS, NBC or Fox will help determine who goes where. At the end of the day, it's all about the dineros. We're like a homeless man with his face pressed against the window watching all of the fat cats dine. Our shipped sailed when we settled for Tom Gola Arena. The only thing we can do now is stand there and look through the window. It pisses me off how right you are. But I don't think ending up in a watered down A-10 with URI, UMass, SJU, GW, etc. is a tragic result, but it's definitely a significant step down. |
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behoops
Utility Bench Player
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Post by behoops on Dec 17, 2012 7:52:17 GMT -5
Xavier and butler are a done deal. Look for umass to move to football BE
New BE will start at 10 and maybe expand later
College football has ruined college sports, thank you for realignment and destroying
Hoops in the process
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Post by explorerman on Dec 17, 2012 11:33:27 GMT -5
Xavier and butler are a done deal. Look for umass to move to football BE New BE will start at 10 and maybe expand later College football has ruined college sports, thank you for realignment and destroying Hoops in the process Sources? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2012 13:15:08 GMT -5
Xavier and butler are a done deal. Look for umass to move to football BE New BE will start at 10 and maybe expand later College football has ruined college sports, thank you for realignment and destroying Hoops in the process Sources? If Mike Kern's article in today's Daily News is accurate (I assume it is since he was talking directly to Villanova people), it looks like the BE Catholics schools will look to form a 10 team league, which is pretty good news for La Salle and the rest of the A10. www.philly.com/philly/sports/colleges/villanova/20121217_Villanova_basketball_going_in_another_direction.htmlIt makes sense because while they should be able to get a nice TV contract, they won't be getting any more football money and aren't going to want too many schools sharing in the pot. Since 5 of the 7 Big East Catholic schools are on the east coast, it would make sense that the three new pickups will all be midwestern teams, which means VCU should be staying put. Xavier is a lock. Butler is probably a lock. I'm guessing the third team will be Saint Louis. Bigger television market than Dayton or Creighton gives SLU the nod. As far as more expansion later, it's possible, but to me it doesn't make sense. If they want to eventually go to 12 teams, what would be the point of them waiting. They've got their pick of teams to add now, and adding those teams now might help them get a better TV deal. I also can't see UMass going to the Big East in its current form. Do they really want to put their basketball and non-revenue sports in a conference with the new additions. The only natural rival would be Temple (because UConn will walk as soon as they can). Their travel budget will go through the roof. I'm sure Temple is begging them to join, but I think they'd be crazy to. Hopefully they stay put in the A10. So if the BE 10 team rumor is correct and the A10 loses X, Butler, and SLU, the new A10 will end up with: La Salle-St Joe's VCU-Richmond UMass-URI Dayton-Duquesne St Bona-Fordham GW- ?? Pick up George Mason for that last spot and the A10 is back to a very solid 12 team, 2 division conference. If UMass decides to leave, either stay at 10 teams or find one more team to join. There will be plenty of decent programs that would jump at the chance. |
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Post by luhoopsfan on Dec 17, 2012 13:42:59 GMT -5
it becomes a nice league where teams like La Salle, when expecting to be good, could schedule some really high-level OOC games without the risk of losing to some really bad team.
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Post by explorer88 on Dec 17, 2012 13:49:05 GMT -5
UMASS is expected to get an all-sport invite to join what is left of the Big East.
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Post by Gnocchi on Dec 17, 2012 16:56:14 GMT -5
If UMass goes and the league's down to 10, why not stay with 10? With X, Butler and SLU gone, the A-10's TV contract may be renegotiated down so 10 means fewer to split the pot and also makes for a nice 18-game home-and-home conference schedule. The cream of the CAA, Drexel and George Mason, bring no new TV markets to the table. Same rationale as far as the optimal number of teams applies to the A-10 as to the new Big East. The big financial hit is not just any lowered TV money but the loss of future NCAA revenue units with X and Butler gone and the A-10 likely to get fewer at-large bids. Each unit is worth about $250K. Why Basketball Is Driving Conference Realignment For The Atlantic 10 Conferencebusinessofcollegesports.com/2012/05/30/the-atlantic-10-conference-the-ncaas-new-basketball-powerhouse/Still beats going back to the MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAC... |
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Post by explorer88 on Dec 17, 2012 16:58:35 GMT -5
I suspect the problem staying at 10 is not protecting ourselves against more defections. Scoop up as many good program as you can so that when the dust settles you have as many good programs as possible.
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Post by sweat83 on Dec 17, 2012 20:06:40 GMT -5
I like how the remaining BE schools are being referred as the "Catholic 7" while they are about to do anything BUT exhibit Catholic values as they raid another conference and screw over their Catholic brethren in the process. All in the name of Greed. Nice going guys! Way to practice what you preach.
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..... Or maybe not....... 
