|
|
Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 30, 2021 19:47:27 GMT -5
If you want a board release so you can wait and bandwagon Duquesne or another school we’ll give it to you, just ask. Waiting for my "likes to posts" ratio to fall below yours, but thanks for your concern. |
|
|
|
Post by hykos1045 on Mar 30, 2021 21:24:28 GMT -5
If you want a board release so you can wait and bandwagon Duquesne or another school we’ll give it to you, just ask. Waiting for my "likes to posts" ratio to fall below yours, but thanks for your concern. We are often in a race to the bottom on this board. Seeing what is at stake, I'm hereby bringing up my standard for liking posts. |
|
|
|
Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 30, 2021 21:52:55 GMT -5
Would love YoY enrollment data if you could provide it. Couldn’t find it. And Colleen did such a shitty job that she was hired by a bigger school for a bunch more money. Maybe Xavier should start taking their cues from the small Catholic school an hour east.
I’m not going to defend the BoT. I think it’s too big and outdated and they should rethink it. But your accusations without any hard data other than a press release from your favorite university isn’t evidence. Lobbing accusations of down enrollment during a once in a lifetime global pandemic is rich. You showed up today looking for these replies. And you got em. But you don’t have all of the data so your argument is light...in my opinion of course.
|
|
|
|
Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 30, 2021 22:23:13 GMT -5
Would love YoY enrollment data if you could provide it. Couldn’t find it. And Colleen did such a shitty job that she was hired by a bigger school for a bunch more money. Maybe Xavier should start taking their cues from the small Catholic school an hour east. I’m not going to defend the BoT. I think it’s too big and outdated and they should rethink it. But your accusations without any hard data other than a press release from your favorite university isn’t evidence. Lobbing accusations of down enrollment during a once in a lifetime global pandemic is rich. You showed up today looking for these replies. And you got em. But you don’t have all of the data so your argument is light...in my opinion of course. I can go back more years if you want, Joe. I have 6 years worth. This is what I had handy from the fall. Not shown here (the system spits out 2 year comparisons), but 2018 had 954 freshman enrolled (if you really want that I can dig up the screenshots from back then). You see below that 2019 had 727, and 2020 had 580. There was no pandemic in 2019 yet the freshman enrollment dipped from 954 to 727. Attachment Deleted |
|
MisterD
The Baptist Himself
Voted Most Popular Poster 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023
Posts: 8,685
Likes: 6,531
|
Post by MisterD on Mar 30, 2021 22:39:42 GMT -5
Useless unless you have national or atleast comp trends as a baseline.
|
|
LaSallePal
Mop-Up Time
Formerly FjordExplorer, currently handsome
Posts: 117
Likes: 95
|
Post by LaSallePal on Mar 31, 2021 4:22:08 GMT -5
Useless unless you have national or atleast comp trends as a baseline.
Lol, there is no way to spin this positively. Maybe he has an axe to grind, but he also has a point. Here's your relevant fall numbers. Nationally, enrollment down 2.6% from the previous year. "First time enrollment under the age of 24" (Freshmen) down 11.6% overall, 10.1% @ private. Public universities up 0.2%, freshmen down 13.7%. Private universities down 0.1%, freshmen down 11.8%. For profit up 5.3%. (? ? ?) Community college down 10.1%, CC freshmen down 22.7%. Public higher education (U+CC) down 4%. Pennsylvania overall enrollment down 3.1% overall, 11.6% at CCs, 2.6% at public universities, 3.0% at private universities. (Note: Graduate enrollment is baked into some of these numbers. The first time enrollment thing is defined as the first semester in which a given student is enrolled solely for college credit [so dual enrollment excluded]. Since I pulled from three sources, feel free to give a percent here or there - they're from different points in data collection revisions, but mostly similar enough. No state level freshmen data available.) Almost all of these are higher than 20.2%. I think it's clear based on these numbers that what I said a few years ago was true - the university lacks an identity in the public eye, or any positive differentiating factor from Temple/West Chester/Rowan, which would explain the community college plus numbers. That seems like it should be a core responsibility of a university president. Sources: nscresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/CTEE_Report_Fall_2020.pdfwww.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2020/10/15/college-enrollment-update-undergraduate-numbers-now-down-4-nationwide/?sh=5cdc21ff389d
And Colleen did such a shitty job that she was hired by a bigger school for a bunch more money.
|
|
|
|
Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 31, 2021 6:15:47 GMT -5
I can go back more years if you want, Joe. I have 6 years worth. This is what I had handy from the fall. I’m not trying to be snarky, but I want to see it. I’m gathering other data on my own. Love this stuff. |
|
|
|
Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 31, 2021 6:23:20 GMT -5
I think it's clear based on these numbers that what I said a few years ago was true - the university lacks an identity in the public eye, or any positive differentiating factor from Temple/West Chester/Rowan, which would explain the community college plus numbers. That seems like it should be a core responsibility of a university president.
Your numbers and multiple data sources were tough to parse and I don’t disagree with your identity hypothesis, but none of the three schools you listed are a comp to La Salle. You can’t compare state schools to La Salle. Show me how St. Joe’s did. |
|
|
|
Post by jellybean on Mar 31, 2021 8:45:14 GMT -5
Useless unless you have national or atleast comp trends as a baseline. smh |
|
|
|
Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 31, 2021 8:47:53 GMT -5
I think it's clear based on these numbers that what I said a few years ago was true - the university lacks an identity in the public eye, or any positive differentiating factor from Temple/West Chester/Rowan, which would explain the community college plus numbers. That seems like it should be a core responsibility of a university president.
Your numbers and multiple data sources were tough to parse and I don’t disagree with your identity hypothesis, but none of the three schools you listed are a comp to La Salle. You can’t compare state schools to La Salle. Show me how St. Joe’s did. he gave the stats for private universities. Freshmen down 11.8%. That's the comp to La Salle where we were down 20.2% |
|
|
|
Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 31, 2021 9:12:30 GMT -5
He dropped a 23 page pdf, a Forbes article and an excel workbook with dozens of sheets. I looked through it all and I get the numbers, but the things he dropped in here were not specifically cited. I'm sure those numbers are right, but are we comparing La Salle with all non-profit four year colleges? So every Ivy League school. Got it. If you look at St. Joe's (our best comp), according to this article their enrollment dropped from 8415 to 7362 between 2016 and 2019, and then almost 600 more in 2020. So about 6800. This is 20%. It's hard to find data for specific schools. And to be honest, comparing La Salle to Duquesne isn't even fair. The demographics of the students are different. The competition is much more plentiful on this side of the state. I'm not saying La Salle isn't at fault or even that Colleen couldn't have done better, but to paint her as some sort of legendary failure without contextual data is unfair. |
|
|
|
Post by golasalle on Mar 31, 2021 9:19:58 GMT -5
Your numbers and multiple data sources were tough to parse and I don’t disagree with your identity hypothesis, but none of the three schools you listed are a comp to La Salle. You can’t compare state schools to La Salle. Show me how St. Joe’s did. he gave the stats for private universities. Freshmen down 11.8%. That's the comp to La Salle where we were down 20.2% I must have missed the announcement that Dr. Hanycz has rescinded her acceptance of the Xavier job and the Board of Trustees has welcomed her back to conclude her term. Oh, what's that you say, that didn't happen? Well then the whole premise of starting your poop flinging at her just seems like you needed some attention. |
|
|
|
Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 31, 2021 9:49:39 GMT -5
If you look at St. Joe's (our best comp), according to this article their enrollment dropped from 8415 to 7362 between 2016 and 2019, and then almost 600 more in 2020. So about 6800. This is 20%. We weren't specifically talking total enrollment here, just freshman enrollment. The 20% (actually 19.2% if you calculate it using your numbers) you cite is total enrollment for SJU over a 5 year span. La Salle's total enrollment in that span did not drop as large a percentage as SJU, but remember, the 2016 year was a really bad year enrollment-wise and the jump in 2017 was right after the tuition reset. 2019 freshman enrollment dipped below the 2016 year that was seen as a disaster by the University. And, despite the higher numbers of freshmen in 2017 and 2018 after the reset, you can see from the total enrollment that retention was poor, resulting in a FT enrollment in Fall 2019 (pre-Covid) close to pre-reset. While the tuition reset was seen as a brilliant move back in 2017, was it a long-term strategy? Hard to say yes to that looking at 2019 numbers both with new freshmen and total enrollment. | Year | FT Freshmen | Total FT UG Enrolment | | F2016 | 788 | 3652 | | F2017 (first year of tuition reset) | 935 | 3821 | | F2018 | 954 | 3904 | | F2019 | 727 | 3665 | | F2020 | 580 | 3293 |
|
|
MisterD
The Baptist Himself
Voted Most Popular Poster 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023
Posts: 8,685
Likes: 6,531
|
Post by MisterD on Mar 31, 2021 10:14:59 GMT -5
Useless unless you have national or atleast comp trends as a baseline. smh Yes, industry comps are not a real thing. Everyone exists in a bubble where up arrows are good and down arrows are bad and that’s it. |
|
|
|
Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 31, 2021 11:19:56 GMT -5
If you look at St. Joe's (our best comp), according to this article their enrollment dropped from 8415 to 7362 between 2016 and 2019, and then almost 600 more in 2020. So about 6800. This is 20%. We weren't specifically talking total enrollment here, just freshman enrollment. The 20% (actually 19.2% if you calculate it using your numbers) you cite is total enrollment for SJU over a 5 year span. Those freshman enrollment numbers are hard to find to see context. This is also where comps are important. Also check this article from November that looks at how college applications were down eight percent overall last year, and 16-percent amongst first-generation college students and the poor. This is where the comps matter. I am going to make a generality comparing race to first-generation college students and the poor because I have data on race. I understand that this is a troublesome jump to make but I'm making it with that caveat that it is not perfect but should be correlative. La Salle's Racial Demographics (2019)55% White 17% Black 11% Hispanic/Latino Duquesne's Racial Demographics (2021)
78% White 5.5% Black 4.2% Hispanic/Latino St. Joseph's Racial Demographics
80% White 7% Black 6% Hispanic/Latino --- So St. Joseph's isn't even a great comp for La Salle when comparing racial demographics, but it is good geographically and financially. That said, without other "freshmen enrollment" numbers broken down by school....we're arguing over nothing. |
|
|
|
Post by 23won on Mar 31, 2021 11:49:31 GMT -5
Gotta agree that those enrollment numbers look really bad and there's no way to slice or justify it differently.
|
|
|
|
Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 31, 2021 11:56:51 GMT -5
We weren't specifically talking total enrollment here, just freshman enrollment. The 20% (actually 19.2% if you calculate it using your numbers) you cite is total enrollment for SJU over a 5 year span. Those freshman enrollment numbers are hard to find to see context. This is also where comps are important. Also check this article from November that looks at how college applications were down eight percent overall last year, and 16-percent amongst first-generation college students and the poor. This is where the comps matter. I am going to make a generality comparing race to first-generation college students and the poor because I have data on race. I understand that this is a troublesome jump to make but I'm making it with that caveat that it is not perfect but should be correlative. La Salle's Racial Demographics (2019)55% White 17% Black 11% Hispanic/Latino Duquesne's Racial Demographics (2021)
78% White 5.5% Black 4.2% Hispanic/Latino St. Joseph's Racial Demographics
80% White 7% Black 6% Hispanic/Latino --- So St. Joseph's isn't even a great comp for La Salle when comparing racial demographics, but it is good geographically and financially. That said, without other "freshmen enrollment" numbers broken down by school....we're arguing over nothing. But he wasn't bonused on "meeting enrollment targets that are compared with St. Joe's advances or declines". She was bonused on meeting targets of a specific number. Are you thinking executive comp contracts should be changed so bonuses are aligned with comps? And who determines what is a comp. Is St. Joe's a comp now given they are acquiring University of the Sciences? If no, then who is our comp? I'd argue our comp is schools where kids apply in addition to La Salle...that's Rowan, West Chester, Temple...in addition to St. Joe's. Earlier you said don't compare state schools, but if those state schools are competing with us for students, they are our comps. We could look at endowment too if you want...that's more publicly available data. |
|
|
|
Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 31, 2021 12:21:39 GMT -5
Why are we talking about bonuses and compensation? Where did that come from?
La Salle and St. Joe's are comps from a school perspective. I was just giving insight as to why La Salle's numbers for freshmen applicants might be lower than St. Joe's. I'll note that you didn't respond to an iota of evidence that I provided regarding that, you shifted the goalposts to endowment. And Colleen's bonuses. And whether or not Rowan is a comp.
Do we agree that the pandemic and the last year affected La Salle in a way that is statistically greater than other colleges because of who La Salle's student population is? Because there is evidence that this is true. But no, Colleen's fault..."solely" according to you.
|
|
LaSallePal
Mop-Up Time
Formerly FjordExplorer, currently handsome
Posts: 117
Likes: 95
|
Post by LaSallePal on Mar 31, 2021 14:23:10 GMT -5
I believe it came from bonuses related to enrollment, which the Board of Trustees presumably considered important if they put that in the contract.
Even if we move the goal posts so that the pandemic isn't in the numbers, consider the numbers across her tenure.
Enrollment down.
Endowment down, and down in an era where the stock market went up substantially.
Reputation? Mixed before and after.
Faculty unhappy and smaller.
Basketball mildly better.
USNWR rank 19th in 2011, 35th in 2017, 34th in 2018, 38th in 2019, 26th in 2020.
We can absolutely factor in the demographics of the student body as a contributing factor to enrollment decline, but it's worthwhile to note that engaging in an appropriate mission is also within the purview of a university president. Arguably La Salle so aggressively courting and welcoming the underserved to the extent it did was not commiserate with the university's resources. Many other problems technically pre-date Hancyz, but that's not a get out of jail free card when you're the leader. I think it's reasonable to say the university is in a substantially similar position to prior to her hiring, and it's not really a stretch to consider whether or not hiring a Canadian for a uniquely American job was a mistake.
|
|
|
|
Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 31, 2021 14:25:39 GMT -5
His argument was specifically this year during the pandemic. If he or you want to make a different argument, present your facts. Enrollment actually ticked up for two years.
And stop with your ‘Canadian’ bullshit. Nothing about her nationality had anything to do with her performance. What about that job is ‘uniquely American?’
|
|
LaSallePal
Mop-Up Time
Formerly FjordExplorer, currently handsome
Posts: 117
Likes: 95
|
Post by LaSallePal on Mar 31, 2021 15:39:03 GMT -5
His argument was specifically this year during the pandemic. If he or you want to make a different argument, present your facts. Enrollment actually ticked up for two years. And stop with your ‘Canadian’ bullshit. Nothing about her nationality had anything to do with her performance. What about that job is ‘uniquely American?’ Canadian universities don't have a politically powerful athletic department with vested interests. Canadian universities don't depend as heavily on donations as most American universities do. Canadian universities are substantially cheaper for students and therefore tuition/retention/funding is much less of an issue and not an element of market competition. Canadian university presidents don't consider fundraising as part of the job. Canadian universities largely don't fight for students since they have fewer universities. Canada only has a handful of private universities. Pennsylvania alone has more. Canadian university presidents don't have to deal with the same kind of politicking and balancing competing, opposed interests. If you don't believe a university president is a high profile public figure job that resembles political office, check out E Gordon Gee's Wikipedia page. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Gordon_GeeTo summarize, show me any non-American university where the president is a combination of town mayor, property manager, mascot, human resources department, manager, and CFO. I don't know why you're saying I didn't produce facts, since they're all in that post. Even by broadening an evaluation in the most favorable manner possible by not factoring in the pandemic, Xavier's doing La Salle a favor. |
|
|
|
Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 31, 2021 15:53:15 GMT -5
His argument was specifically this year during the pandemic. If he or you want to make a different argument, present your facts. Enrollment actually ticked up for two years. And stop with your ‘Canadian’ bullshit. Nothing about her nationality had anything to do with her performance. What about that job is ‘uniquely American?’ His argument was that...people gave a pass on enrollment due to the pandemic or a variety of other factors, but the enrollment was suffering BEFORE the pandemic. The discount on tuition bumped numbers for 2 years, but then what...and at what cost? They were right back down in 2019 to pre-discount levels. Enrollment is the lifeblood of a La Salle. It is the primary source of operating income. It is a factor in terms of how the President is bonused. Take a look at the 5-year plan (developed for lots of $$$ by consultants) Momentum 2022. There are specifics in there about enrollment and retention. It started trending downward pre-pandemic, despite this being one of her office's strategic priorities. While a few things have been done in this document, many have not. Yes, COVID hindered some of these, but leaders lead through situations, they don't take a year off and shrug their shoulders and say...ah well...covid and all. wa3.lasalle.edu/channels/docs/get.php?id=1498Here are some of the KPIs called out in the strategic plan. Are these accomplished...or even in flight?: - Increase in the proportion of operating revenue from sources other than tuition - Increase in undergraduate enrollment levels and retention rates across populations - Increase in levels of philanthropic, government, corporate and foundation support - Improvement in year-over-year retention rates - Completion of multi-year Campus Master Plan with prioritized ranking of projects
Although not a KPI, this strategic initiative from Momentum 2022 is an interesting one: - Improve our performance record in NCAA conference championships across all sports, paying particular attention to identifying the role to be played by Men’s and Women’s basketball in advancing La Salle’s strategic priorities |
|
LaSallePal
Mop-Up Time
Formerly FjordExplorer, currently handsome
Posts: 117
Likes: 95
|
Post by LaSallePal on Mar 31, 2021 16:13:51 GMT -5
For reference, Ivy League university presidents: Brown - American. Columbia - American. Cornell - American. Dartmouth - American. Harvard - American. Penn - American. Princeton - American. Yale - American. And an assortment of other universities of note: Amherst - American. Bates - American. Bowdoin - American. Bryn Mawr - American. Bucknell - American. CalTech - American. Chicago - American. Connecticut College - American. Delaware - Greek, extensive work in American higher education.
Drexel - American. Haverford - American. Jefferson - American. Johns Hopkins - Canadian, extensive work in American higher education.
Lafayette - American. Middlebury - American. MIT - Venezuelan, extensive work in American higher education.
Northwestern - American. Stanford - Dual citizen Canadian & American, over a decade of experience at UCSF, Stanford and Rockefeller University as president.
St. Joes - American. Swarthmore - American. Trinity - American. Tufts - American. UC Berkeley - American. UCLA - American. UCSD - Indian, extensive work in American higher education.
Ursinus - American. USC - American. Wesleyan - American. So yeah, I consider hiring a university president whose experience with the American higher educations system would have been increased by viewing of Animal House a mistake.  |
|
MisterD
The Baptist Himself
Voted Most Popular Poster 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023
Posts: 8,685
Likes: 6,531
|
Post by MisterD on Mar 31, 2021 17:17:51 GMT -5
Curious if Xavier’s new president qualifies as having “extensive work” at American universities and, if not, at which year of experience that designation is attained.
|
|
|
|
Post by thelasallelunatic on Mar 31, 2021 17:37:50 GMT -5
Let's talk turkey here...do we go back to the Christian Brother route, or do we stay with a layperson?
|
|
|
|
Post by explorer88 on Mar 31, 2021 17:43:44 GMT -5
Let's talk turkey here...do we go back to the Christian Brother route, or do we stay with a layperson? Layperson. You need to make the right hire. That is the bottom line. |
|
|
|
Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 31, 2021 18:05:04 GMT -5
Curious if Xavier’s new president qualifies as having “extensive work” at American universities and, if not, at which year of experience that designation is attained. Murica or bust |
|
|
|
Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 31, 2021 19:43:06 GMT -5
Let's talk turkey here...do we go back to the Christian Brother route, or do we stay with a layperson? Layperson. You need to make the right hire. That is the bottom line. Layperson or Christian Brother....it needs to be the right person. I was fortunate to be a student under Bro Pat's tenure and watch the growth and expansion of the school under his leadership. Can we find another Brother Pat? Some Christian Brothers have not been the best though so I wouldn't want the wrong person just because they are a Brother. If two candidates are equal and one is a Brother, then by all means go with the Brother (the $0 salary alone is a win if he is the right candidate). |
|
|
|
Post by thelasallelunatic on Mar 31, 2021 19:47:58 GMT -5
In my experience at La Salle, Brothers' were the best professors. I don't know how that translates into the administration.
|
|
|
|
Post by explorer88 on Mar 31, 2021 20:10:23 GMT -5
Layperson. You need to make the right hire. That is the bottom line. Layperson or Christian Brother....it needs to be the right person. I was fortunate to be a student under Bro Pat's tenure and watch the growth and expansion of the school under his leadership. Can we find another Brother Pat? Some Christian Brothers have not been the best though so I wouldn't want the wrong person just because they are a Brother. If two candidates are equal and one is a Brother, then by all means go with the Brother (the $0 salary alone is a win if he is the right candidate). They won’t be a Brother. |
|
