RPI Update 01/16

[durenduren]

This is such a circular argument that never has a conclusion. Everyone agrees that La Salle botched and failed to capitalize on the momentum provided by the Sweet 16. Some of that was on-court product, but more of it was off-court.

But what this argument CONTINUES to overlook each and everytime we go here is that so much progress and change has occured since the entire university's former movers-and-shakers have been jettisoned. Gotta have patience, you aren't going to fix years of mistakes overnight no matter how many times we point out how they screwed up.

Those that missed the mark aren't here anymore, and the current crew have shown they're willing to listen and change, making this program a huge priority.

[MisterD]

Ehhh ... times change. Wyoming, Oklahoma A&M, Holy Cross, City College of NY() and San Francisco were all champions around that time too. It would be cool to be back and all that, but the past doesn't influence the present.

[las71]

One of the things I wrestle with about our program is what is a realistic expectation. I want to be fair to G and the administration and when we talk about our history most of our national success goes back to the Gola era. I find it hard to believe that our history can be used as a recruiting tool today. In the lifetime of today's recruits we have only been to the tournament twice. I too hate the facilities talk but it's a negative in recruiting. G just can't get the 4 year kids who will make us consistent tournament contenders including the NIT. Many A10 teams have more recent success including VCU, Dayton and St. Joes. We have never won the A10 and when we made our remarkable run we were one of the last teams in. I like our team this year and hope we can end our A10 drought but I'm not sure what a reasonable expectation is. Is it possible that at 4 games under 500 for his career G has done as well as we should expect. As huge and loyal fans are we capable of being realistic? Again, I want to be fair but not sure what that means.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using proboards

[mookie]

We didn't hold up our end upon joining the A10 though. That's the issue...and when you step up in conferences and don't provide the appropriate finances and/or facilities to match it, the gap between the haves and have nots will grow (especially over a 15-20 year period). Yes, the university won the NCAA and NIT in the mid '50s but that means nothing at this point. We're 60 years removed from that. The team was very good in the 90s and had we sustained that success upon joining the A10, then we'd be much farther along. However, it's almost like starting from scratch because most kids don't value tradition like they used to, unless that tradition is in the last 5-10 years.

We have the Sweet 16 and NIT in the last 5 years, that's something to start to with. We really weren't in a position to capitalize on that run for a variety of reasons. However, things change and the admin is more forward thinking and has shown more interest in the program in the last year which is very exciting (thanks prez @chanycz)! Should the program catch lightning in a bottle again, I think we'd be in a very good position to capitalize. Another Sweet 16 run isn't totally necessary. Should the program make it to the tourney this year and again next year, then that's a great start. Granted, another Sweet 16 run would be much more fun though!

And I don't want to downplay what FGCU has been able to ac hieve. They're a new and very young program trying to establish an identity and they've done a very good job at that (well, hell of a job).

NCAA Appearances in 2013 & 2016
NIT Appearance in 2014

That's a hell of a job after beginning their transition to D1 in 2007-2008 before officially becoming a full D1 program in 2011.

[MisterD]

Jan 17, 2017 16:26:19 GMT -5 las71 said:

G just can't get the 4 year kids who will make us consistent tournament contenders including the NIT.

That's the money quote right there. The type of kid you need 4+ of on your roster at all times to consistently be top 1/3 of the A-10 is good enough to get a major offer(s) and 9 times out of 10 (Duren/Wright being the 1 out of 10 exceptions) is going to take it. Until we make it not life through commitment to the program, that's life.

[aswjr]

I clicked on this thread thinking I would see some good insight on rpi...boy was I wrong. I'll add my 2 cents in on this discussion. Tradition is extremely overrated esp when talking about as one mentioned 60 years ago....we are now a society of what have you done for me lately. Sure they dropped the ball on the Sweet 16 run, as someone else mentioned I think the powers that be will not drop the ball if they are put in the situation this year next or while they are in power. They have shown in a short period they realize the benefits this program can bring to the university. I think postseason any kind would be a great step in the right direction this year. I am on board for an NIT berth as long as NCAAs or bust next year. The core sans Roberts/Price will be there. Deas who has shown flashes and will be a year older and there are some decent recruits on the way. That would be a decent expectation from a fan base. I would love to see them get to the NCAAs this year even it was a first round out because it would get the guys some experience and would help with recruiting.

[MisterD]

(I'm Mr. Positive and I disagree. I know guys improve and we're deep and all that, but this is our year, not next. Price and Roberts is a decent sized talent bleed.)

[durenduren]

Jan 17, 2017 16:43:29 GMT -5 MisterD said:

(I'm Mr. Positive and I disagree. I know guys improve and we're deep and all that, but this is our year, not next. Price and Roberts is a decent sized talent bleed.)

Ding, ding, ding. It won't be any easier next year, that's for sure.

[mookie]

I agree that this is our year and that next isn't going to be any easier. If we don't make it this year I won't be as optimistic next year and feel that the NITs would be the ceiling.

[coqui900]

Dr. G is a great "Moneyball" coach and recruiter. He really knows how to play advantages.

The Rodney team was a really great idea on paper. He saw an advantage in recruiting a bunch of swing players. They team, sadly, never could live up to what it could have been due to the horror show injury bug in Rodney's senior year and the kid from Chester who got busted slinging drugs.

In addition, that team was one of the best rebounding teams in the country at its peak. He coached to their advantage.

He switched after to fielding more traditional/guard lineups but found the advantage in the transfer market, especially from kids from the Philly area who became disenchanted. It could not have been a better idea.

Our best teams shot a lot of threes and prevented a lot of threes from being shot. They were really high in those lists in national rankings.

This team is a monster on offense. Defensively they have struggled, to say the least. But that is a total anomaly.

But a team that always finds itself at the top of the rankings in different categories shows a coach who knows how to recruit and play to that talent's strengths.

[MisterD]

Jan 17, 2017 17:03:59 GMT -5 coqui900 said:

The Rodney team was a really great idea on paper. He saw an advantage in recruiting a bunch of swing players.

So agree.

[explorergolfer17]

Jan 17, 2017 16:04:40 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Ehhh ... times change. Wyoming, Oklahoma A&M, Holy Cross, City College of NY() and San Francisco were all champions around that time too. It would be cool to be back and all that, but the past doesn't influence the present.

I am not talking just championships. I am talking how in the early 90s the best college basketball player was at La Salle. That isn't 50 years ago. I know we got lucky with Train coming to La Salle, but if a school like Creighton can achieve sustained success then why the hell cant La Salle. Sometimes I think this board gets carried away with the beginning of the year predictions, but from a grand scheme every 10 years I don't think it's absurd to ask for 5 postseason appearances (NIT and NCAA). The sweet 16 run is a wonderful thing but it is also showing to be a flash in the pan, I want sustained relevance instead of 1 deepish run every 20 years. If you sustain relevance the deep runs will come on their own

[MisterD]

Jan 17, 2017 17:15:07 GMT -5 explorergolfer17 said:

but if a school like Creighton can achieve sustained success then why the hell cant La Salle.

Tough to say ...

[coqui900]

Creighton became a great program because:

1) They are the only team in a decent sized city with a pro-type arena.

2) They have a really good coach.

3) His son shockingly somehow became a College Hall of Fame type player and one of the great scorers in the history of college basketball. No one thought stardom for him at all.

4) Getting into the Big East helped them out a lot.

5) He played the transfer market really well getting Watson (who just tore his ACL) from BU.

Great program but the advantage of being the only team in town and in the Big East are the big ones.

[MisterD]

The bigger question is "could we be Creighton?". Yes, we could. Its something we could do.

[theneumann64]

Jan 17, 2017 16:04:40 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Ehhh ... times change. Wyoming, Oklahoma A&M, Holy Cross, City College of NY() and San Francisco were all champions around that time too. It would be cool to be back and all that, but the past doesn't influence the present.

Seriously. The kids we're recruiting right now were born basically in 2000. Nothing that occurred in 1990, let alone 1969 or the mid-'50's is going to matter to them. We have a proud history and tradition, and I'd like players, fans, officials, everyone to be knowledgeable and proud of it. But it's really not the asset some think it is, given how long ago all of it was, save a few months in early 2013.

[mookie]

Let's also not overlook the fact that our struggles immediately coincided with a switch to a higher level conference without the appropriate financing to invest in the facilities and the program. And a coach who didn't like to utilize the AAU circuit (if I remember correctly). Those are all difficult things to overcome when they all happened at the same time for more than a decade. What happened during that time was pure neglect and a slap in the face to everybody who worked so hard to get La Salle to where it was only to let it fall apart so quickly.

It's all possible to overcome but not overnight and without a solid plan in place with the flexibility and ability to jump on the opportunity to capitalize when presented.

[luhoopsfan]

We were Villanova before Villanova was Villanova, AKA pre 1970. When Hayman was constructed it was the biggest mistake in program history. It could have been a suitable facility for on-campus games that would still hold some nostalgia/charm today but the school caved to the Big 5 tradition. Nova did not cave when they were in a similar position 20 years later.

I offered the history of Xavier University and their investment/ development and what it has yielded. It didn't happen over night but they are proof that things can change. I think this admin understands that and o don't believe they feel that the status quo in men's basketball is acceptable.

The best news is that their is a new group in charge of the future and they hamhave proven willing to listen, identify opportunities and execute. It sucks to keep hearing "patience" but our current position is 40 years in the making and things have just recently started to trend upward.

I'm not sure how this thread got so far off the rails.

[durenduren]

I think all of this is well and good but... How I see this, you've got to fix the roof before you worry about filling the house with all the fancy toys. The University, for all intensive purposes, was broken and needed fixing. We're in the middle of fixing that foundation, we'll get to the roof when the time is right, and then we can worry about filling the garage with shiny toys. Deviate from the plan & it doesn't matter what you build for or commit to this program - a 10,000 seat arena is useless if the greater University is broke as hell.

[Shout out to my Cousin Bern]

Jan 17, 2017 17:22:31 GMT -5 MisterD said:

The bigger question is "could we be Creighton?". Yes, we could. Its something we could do.

I don't mean this antagonistically, I am surprised by your conclusion. From
Your other posts you seem to be squarely entrenched in the "this is about as good as we can get" camp. Have I misinterpreted?

[mikesmd77]

I'm not saying I "accept" an NIT bid but obviously it mirrors the trajectory of the program the year prior to the sweet 16 run, so if we don't make the tournament but build off a NIT run, so be it. Like every year we do not make the dance I will be disappointed. However playing postseason basketball is better than being home, and with so much of the team returning it would give you a chance to gain some experience in postseason games...

[MisterD]

Jan 17, 2017 18:14:58 GMT -5 Shout out to my Cousin Bern said:

I don't mean this antagonistically, I am surprised by your conclusion. From
Your other posts you seem to be squarely entrenched in the "this is about as good as we can get" camp. Have I misinterpreted?

Kinda? My "we're doing better than what we should expect to do" stance is 100% tied to our current facilities and level of investment. If that changes, my expectations change. Like I really like Giannini *for us* because I think his biggest strength perfectly fits our biggest inherent weakness.

[MisterD]

Jan 17, 2017 18:00:19 GMT -5 luhoopsfan said:

We were Villanova before Villanova was Villanova, AKA pre 1970.

This is a depressing and probably accurate way to view things.

Jan 17, 2017 18:00:19 GMT -5 luhoopsfan said:

The best news is that their is a new group in charge of the future and they hamhave proven willing to listen, identify opportunities and execute. It sucks to keep hearing "patience" but our current position is 40 years in the making and things have just recently started to trend upward.

Agreed. We're in much better shape now than 18 months or whatever ago. And better than immediately post-Sweet 16 too, whether or not it feels like it.

Jan 17, 2017 18:00:19 GMT -5 luhoopsfan said:

I'm not sure how this thread got so far off the rails.

Real
Progress
Imminent???

[durenduren]

Jan 17, 2017 18:25:20 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Jan 17, 2017 18:14:58 GMT -5 Shout out to my Cousin Bern said:

I don't mean this antagonistically, I am surprised by your conclusion. From
Your other posts you seem to be squarely entrenched in the "this is about as good as we can get" camp. Have I misinterpreted?

Kinda? My "we're doing better than what we should expect to do" stance is 100% tied to our current facilities and level of investment. If that changes, my expectations change. Like I really like Giannini *for us* because I think his biggest strength perfectly fits our biggest inherent weakness.

I agree with this, but because I'm curious where you see it...

So let's say we announced plans to break ground on an arena - is Giannini no longer that great fit?

Or what if we magically string two tournament appearances? Does that impact recruiting enough where Giannini's value becomes diminished?

[Deleted]

Jan 17, 2017 17:18:41 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Jan 17, 2017 17:15:07 GMT -5 explorergolfer17 said:

but if a school like Creighton can achieve sustained success then why the hell cant La Salle.

Tough to say ...

What that picture doesn't say: "In 2000, Omaha voters approved a $216 million bond issue to build a new convention center and arena; the remainder of the $291 million project was provided by private organizations and individuals."

Unless the offer is $1 a year for rent, I am in no way interested in La Salle playing at WFC, or blowing $300m on an arena.

Let's loop this back around to RPI though. Here is a sampling of teams at, near or ahead of La Salle's RPI (67) at the moment: St. Mary's (19), Mid Tennessee State (23), Illinois State (26), UNC Wilmington (31), Nevada (32), Texas-Arlington (45), Akron (49), Charleston (55), New Mexico State (68), UT Chattanooga (75), Georgia Southern (84), UNC Asheville (85).

Here's the arena of the highest ranked team in that sampling:



The area behind the other basket is a wall.

None of these schools have facilities that are going to blow the minds of a teenager, and yet they're getting it done. There's also a ton of schools with better facilities who also lose, a lot. Facilities is a cop out. I've said previously that Rick Pitino may as well show up and say "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste" but you know exactly why parents let their kids go there.

[MisterD]

Jan 17, 2017 18:55:01 GMT -5 durenduren said:

So let's say we announced plans to break ground on an arena - is Giannini no longer that great fit?

Or what if we magically string two tournament appearances? Does that impact recruiting enough where Giannini's value becomes diminished?

Man, I can't answer that because who knows how things would play out. I can say with a real facility and financial commitment, I wouldn't expect .500 over 13 seasons, but I can't say I wouldn't take this last ~4 year window because Sweet 16 dot dot dot this current roster would be strong for a majority of the A-10, not just us.

[thelasallelunatic]

Jan 17, 2017 17:10:09 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Jan 17, 2017 17:03:59 GMT -5 coqui900 said:

The Rodney team was a really great idea on paper. He saw an advantage in recruiting a bunch of swing players.

So agree.

Besides the 08 win over St. Joes, and I'll add the 09 win over St. Joes, I hated those teams. You can add the 10-11 team into that as well. JWill and Ruben stand out over that time span. Ruben getting t-ed up at Charlotte with 3 minutes left in 2007, leading to us blowing a 10 point lead. Ruben dribbling the ball for 30 seconds when we were down 2 possessions against FSU. Rodney Green absolutely playing matador defense on a coast to coast last second layup vs URI. Losing to Coppin St, Morgan St, UMBC... there were some other bad ones in there. Watching the ball go into the low post and JWill being a black hole, that ball was never coming back out, he would try and score against 3 defenders, eating leather 4-5 times a game. Only getting Vernon for 1 year, and it seemed he was in foul trouble that entire season. Losing to every BCS opponent save Providence in 09-10.

Yea, those 5 years are La Salle basketball hell for me. Darnell Harris is about the only beacon of light aside from the St. Joes wins.

[MisterD]

It was the concept of the Green/Barrett/Guillandeaux/Mbala/Grimes class more than the results. It was a clever idea that ultimately failed.

[thelasallelunatic]

Jan 17, 2017 20:07:39 GMT -5 MisterD said:

It was the concept of the Green/Barrett/Guillandeaux/Mbala/Grimes class more than the results. It was a clever idea that ultimately failed.

Gotcha Mr. D...I hear you. We never brought a point guard in to get those guys the ball. Rodney and Ruben weren't point guards and G tried to get both to run the point. Burton would've been there in 09-10.

[JoeFedorowicz]

I don't know what Ruben was if he wasn't a point guard. God I hated his game.