And ... the gloves are now off !

[durenduren]

Mar 19, 2014 16:09:36 GMT -5 theneumann64 said:

I dunno. There's no good solutions to this, only less bad ones.

heard an interesting take that there's a significant push from GM's and the players union to require two years after graduation, so age what? 20? was focused on getting skills outside of ball and growing as a person.

But you're right, all solutions aren't good but just less bad.

[ltrain38]

I understand that a small cartel of schools, mostly large state institutions, make a fortune on what is, essentially, the inadequately compensated labor of 18-22 year old kids. On one level, paying them is the obvious solution. The complication comes in at the level of programs at schools even smaller than La Salle, with smaller budgets and revenues for basketball. These programs will inevitably be squeezed out, no longer able to break even on things like guarantee games and shared tournament credits when they, too, have to pay players. The only solution for them will be to end scholarship sports and withdraw from Division I competition. I suspect this process will proceed to the next tier of programs (which includes all of the Big 5 schools, except maybe 'Nova, who would go down in the next round), eventually leaving only large state institutions. In the end, the loss of these programs (or at least their demotion to true amateur level) will deprive how many thousands of kids of an education and a source of social mobility?

This problem has no good solution. Either a small group get exploited badly by an elite hiding behind the fiction of non-profit status, or a huge number never get the opportunity to get a degree without taking on the burden of obscene and increasingly unpayable loans (I don't care that other students have to, that's a broken system too).

[MisterD]

How do we have professional sports leagues where teams from relatively small cities like Cincinnati and Milwaukee compete against teams from huge cities like NYC and LA?

[phillyhoops4life]

In 2012–2013, the NCAA distributed $188 million from its basketball fund to Division I conferences based on their performance in the tournament over a six-year period. This money, of course, is not earmarked for basketball players, or for any other college athletes. A school can use it to pay a coach’s contract bonus, or to build a new weight room, but it would be against NCAA rules to hand it out to the athletes who did the most to earn it.

Law professor Marc Edelman suggested recently that a fair market wage for playing in the tournament might be $340,000 per player—that’s 45 percent of NCAA tournament broadcast revenues divided by 68 teams, with 15 players per team. Edelman also puts forward a $170,000-per-player-per-game plan that acknowledges that some teams advance further in the tournament than others.

www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2014/03/ncaa_tournament_strike_the_opening_thursday_of_march_madness_is_the_perfect.html?wpisrc=hpsponsoredd2

[coachd]

There is no way amateur student-athletes should be paid more then a monthly stipend for living expenses outside of the free room and meal plan they receive ($150 per month?).

Cap the coaches salaries to about $350k. Coaches that violate recruiting rules or do not graduate at least 80% of their two-year (associates degree) or 3-year or more (bachelors degree) students must face heavy fines of up to half their annual salaries. Coaches with violations can have their future wages garnished if they quit or move to any other job, coaching or non-coaching. We must stop the scumbag coaches in College Football and Basketball from profiting from their violations while the colleges take a hit.

[MisterD]

"than"

[durenduren]

Mar 20, 2014 10:21:31 GMT -5 MisterD said:

"than"

Starting to think he's just screwing with us.

[MisterD]

Would be fun if he were an evil baiting genius who types out salient points than (wink) alters them for maximum reaction.

[coachd]

IF the student-athletes demand salaries THEN
Alums would demand better performance on the court and in the classroom
ELSE
Student-athletes can keep the system they have now
ENDIF

[MisterD]

YAY WAY 2 GO!!!

[durenduren]

Mar 20, 2014 15:01:39 GMT -5 coachd said:

IF the student-athletes demand salaries THEN
Alums would demand better performance on the court and in the classroom
ELSE
Student-athletes can keep the system they have now
ENDIF

Punctu
ation
PLS?

[gymrat67]

Northwestern ruling could ' rattle the universe of universities '

fw.to/eRbNu2d

[durenduren]

They're planning on appealing it. I'm not no lawyer, but expect this to move nowhere quick.

[luhoopsfan]

I'm not saying what these schools do is right, moral or fair and as with religion and government, once human beings become involved, even the best theories and concepts can be destroyed by corruption and greed.

However, no one puts a gun to these kids' heads and says that they must play a sport in college. Sure it may be their way to receiving a free education from a school they would likely otherwise not be admitted to in some cases, but let's not make it sound like these kids are being scooped up in trucks and driven 100's of miles away against their will either.

I keep hearing about how they want to be treated "fair", but what happens when the "regular" students come back with how they don't receive special meals from the cafeteria, priority scheduling for classes, additional academic support, selective housing, etc. Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for when you have a good thing going.

Full disclosure: I was a full-scholarship athlete, I know exactly what the rigors of being a student-athlete are like and I freely chose to accept them, but that's just me. I don't think it's right that athletic administrators can make money off of my success other than my coaches, but at the same time, I can see the perspective of it's the admin that hires the coaches so if they are making the right choices, they should be rewarded. I think the NCAA is a farce and full of greedy academics that have no idea what the real world is like.

[JoeFedorowicz]

Mar 27, 2014 7:27:29 GMT -5 luhoopsfan said:

I'm not saying what these schools do is right, moral or fair and as with religion and government, once human beings become involved, even the best theories and concepts can be destroyed by corruption and greed.

However, no one puts a gun to these kids' heads and says that they must play a sport in college. Sure it may be their way to receiving a free education from a school they would likely otherwise not be admitted to in some cases, but let's not make it sound like these kids are being scooped up in trucks and driven 100's of miles away against their will either.

I keep hearing about how they want to be treated "fair", but what happens when the "regular" students come back with how they don't receive special meals from the cafeteria, priority scheduling for classes, additional academic support, selective housing, etc. Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for when you have a good thing going.

Full disclosure: I was a full-scholarship athlete, I know exactly what the rigors of being a student-athlete are like and I freely chose to accept them, but that's just me. I don't think it's right that athletic administrators can make money off of my success other than my coaches, but at the same time, I can see the perspective of it's the admin that hires the coaches so if they are making the right choices, they should be rewarded. I think the NCAA is a farce and full of greedy academics that have no idea what the real world is like.

Bingo. I'm on the fence about how to compensate athletes, but as Torpey always used to tell us, "Being here is not your right, it is a privilege. You can leave whenever you want."

[MisterD]

A hardline stance they can take ... except with revenue generating athletes. You think Ohio State will just "revoke the privilege" of fielding basketball and football teams if this starts to lean the athletes' way? They'll fight to keep the whole pie and they'll try to shame their ever-cycling labor without conscience in the process, but they'll cut a slice off to share before they throw it in the garbage.

[ltrain38]

Mar 27, 2014 7:27:29 GMT -5 luhoopsfan said:

I'm not saying what these schools do is right, moral or fair and as with religion and government, once human beings become involved, even the best theories and concepts can be destroyed by corruption and greed.

However, no one puts a gun to these kids' heads and says that they must play a sport in college. Sure it may be their way to receiving a free education from a school they would likely otherwise not be admitted to in some cases, but let's not make it sound like these kids are being scooped up in trucks and driven 100's of miles away against their will either.

I keep hearing about how they want to be treated "fair", but what happens when the "regular" students come back with how they don't receive special meals from the cafeteria, priority scheduling for classes, additional academic support, selective housing, etc. Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for when you have a good thing going.

Full disclosure: I was a full-scholarship athlete, I know exactly what the rigors of being a student-athlete are like and I freely chose to accept them, but that's just me. I don't think it's right that athletic administrators can make money off of my success other than my coaches, but at the same time, I can see the perspective of it's the admin that hires the coaches so if they are making the right choices, they should be rewarded. I think the NCAA is a farce and full of greedy academics that have no idea what the real world is like.

Can we say "greedy academic administrators?" They've squeezed the actual academics out of the decision-making process in American universities years ago.

[durenduren]

Mar 27, 2014 12:47:21 GMT -5 ltrain38 said:

Mar 27, 2014 7:27:29 GMT -5 luhoopsfan said:

I keep hearing about how they want to be treated "fair", but what happens when the "regular" students come back with how they don't receive special meals from the cafeteria, priority scheduling for classes, additional academic support, selective housing, etc. Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for when you have a good thing going.

Can we say "greedy academic administrators?" They've squeezed the actual academics out of the decision-making process in American universities years ago.

No one is forcing these kids to take basket-weaving 101 or these "write a half page paper and pass an entire course" things (hello, UNC). If they want to be treated fair and regular, they need to start with themselves IMO. Can't have the best of both worlds, and I'm not convinced the grass is greener because they've got a pretty good shake as it stands.

[MisterD]

How many hours per day / week do basketball players spend at practice, film, mandated study or in the gym, beyond travel for games?

[golasalle]

Mar 27, 2014 13:08:48 GMT -5 durenduren said:

Mar 27, 2014 12:47:21 GMT -5 ltrain38 said:

Can we say "greedy academic administrators?" They've squeezed the actual academics out of the decision-making process in American universities years ago.

No one is forcing these kids to take basket-weaving 101 or these "write a half page paper and pass an entire course" things (hello, UNC). If they want to be treated fair and regular, they need to start with themselves IMO. Can't have the best of both worlds, and I'm not convinced the grass is greener because they've got a pretty good shake as it stands.

Unfortunately, many of them ARE forced into taking less challenging classes. In many of these big-time programs (particularly football) athletes are actively discouraged (read prohibited) from taking challenging courses even if required for their major. They are also, in most DI programs, prohibited from taking classes that conflict with practice times. To go against these rules is to jeopardize your place on the team and therefore your scholarship. These are the things that need to be cleaned up.

If you are going to offer an education for free in exchange for commitment to big-time sports,I think that the schools should be required to give these kids an education that is worth something. Not saying that there aren't kids who look for the easy way out, but in many instances it is the school's fear of players being academically ineligible that is forcing them to take gut classes.

[fvp47]

It it important to note that many of them take less challenging classes because they come into school after having "graduated" from high school and read at the 5th grade level.

[durenduren]

Noted. But do you think that mentality will change if we start paying these kids? I don't think it's a stretch that they'll care even less about classwork then.

[MisterD]

Mutually exclusive arguments, no?

[fvp47]

Agreed, This case is a long way from over. It will eventually end up in federal court and possibly to the Supreme court. I for one do not view them as employees. I do however agree that if they are injured their medical bills should be paid while in school and afterwards if need be and that their ride continues if they can no longer play due to injury.

[durenduren]

Totally. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[luhoopsfan]

Mar 27, 2014 13:15:56 GMT -5 MisterD said:

How many hours per day / week do basketball players spend at practice, film, mandated study or in the gym, beyond travel for games?

"Mandatory" hours are limited to 20 hours per week including competition but excluding travel. "competition" is equal to 3 hours, so if you have 2 games per week that leaves 14 hours of coach-mandated time. Teams also have to provide an "off" day in certain increments when classes are in session.

"Mandatory" means team practice and film study, but coaches may say that individual film study and weight training is optional, however, if you want to be great, those are the things you need to do in addition to just practicing with the team. If a S&C coach is present during your weight-training, that counts toward your time.

I don't think it's hard to exceed the 20 hours a week "limit" once you factor in the individual work you need to put in if you really want to excel in your sport. For basketball in particular, 2 games per week would leave 14 hours for practice and supervised weight training. let's say you're required to lift 3 days a week for an hour, that leaves only 11 hours to review film and actually practice over the course of 4 days, or less than 3 hours per day.

Strength training typically needs to be more than just 3 days per week, plus, the better players need to shoot & work through individual drills to really elevate their game.

[fvp47]

Mar 27, 2014 15:16:08 GMT -5 luhoopsfan said:

Mar 27, 2014 13:15:56 GMT -5 MisterD said:

How many hours per day / week do basketball players spend at practice, film, mandated study or in the gym, beyond travel for games?

"Mandatory" hours are limited to 20 hours per week including competition but excluding travel. "competition" is equal to 3 hours, so if you have 2 games per week that leaves 14 hours of coach-mandated time. Teams also have to provide an "off" day in certain increments when classes are in session.

"Mandatory" means team practice and film study, but coaches may say that individual film study and weight training is optional, however, if you want to be great, those are the things you need to do in addition to just practicing with the team. If a S&C coach is present during your weight-training, that counts toward your time.

I don't think it's hard to exceed the 20 hours a week "limit" once you factor in the individual work you need to put in if you really want to excel in your sport. For basketball in particular, 2 games per week would leave 14 hours for practice and supervised weight training. let's say you're required to lift 3 days a week for an hour, that leaves only 11 hours to review film and actually practice over the course of 4 days, or less than 3 hours per day.

Strength training typically needs to be more than just 3 days per week, plus, the better players need to shoot & work through individual drills to really elevate their game.

It has always been this way even in high school. I ran the mile and it was expected that you would show up at first practice in shape and then run on your own aside from practice. This was almost 50 year ago.

[gymrat67]

www.nytimes.com/2014/03/27/sports/ncaafootball/national-labor-relations-board-rules-northwestern-players-are-employees-and-can-unionize.html?_r=0

sportsillustrated.com/cnn.com/college-football/news/20140327/ncaa-athletes-union-ruling-northwestern/

www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/nlrb-director-region-13-issues-decision-northwestern-university-athletes

[jellybean]

Prediction. Schools will have only the required number of men's and women's athletic teams to remain D1. Rest will go by the wayside and/or they won't offer athletic scholarships (only academic and financial aid) in those other sports.

[durenduren]

Mar 27, 2014 16:38:51 GMT -5 jellybean said:

Prediction. Schools will have only the required number of men's and women's athletic teams to remain D1. Rest will go by the wayside and/or they won't offer athletic scholarships (only academic and financial aid) in those other sports.

We're at Step 1 of 1000 thankfully, but I agree this is sadly where we'll end up.