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Post by theneumann64 on Dec 22, 2013 17:12:19 GMT -5
I partially agree. People with the "embarrassing" have truly short memories. And we're way up in the ledger as fans in recent history. You're right. But this is not a good team. They've had 12 games to show ANY signs of that, and they've not done it. They're a mediocre team, looking at beating the Bonvanture's, Fordham's, and Duquesne's of the world, and scaring absolutely no one in the upper tier of the conference. Maybe a 7 seed in the A-10. Good team or not, I'm of the opinion that these are kids playing a game for my enjoyment. Anything they do is fine as long as they don't tarnish the school's name. Losing a basketball game against a ACC team hardly does that. I'd obviously rather they win than lose but if this is "embarrassing" to you and you're ready to mail in the season or dump your ESPN Gameday tickets -- I don't really have a lot of time for that. I mean, they gave us a dream season last year. Literally everything went right for us. Nothing is going right for us this year. It is what it is. If you want to talk about what the team can do to fix itself than I'm good to go. But if you think a player has quit or given up or the like than I'm going to have to use the block feature. Yeah like I said I think you're right about that part. I just don't think they can be classified as anything other than average at best right now.
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Post by victoriouslasalle on Dec 22, 2013 17:15:44 GMT -5
Scary part is Miami is not close to being a good team. Our bigs were fine shooting 50% from field, averaging 10 points each and 9 rebounds for a solid line but our guards are so bad it is mind boggling. Guards shot 14 for 44 today which has become the norm. I still believe G is a very difficult coach to play for because he is so stressed and I think after making tourney last season he finally relaxed and team played great. Not blaming G but everyone has noticed based on comments that G can be out of hand at times which doesn't help players who are in a rut. WOW! Guards 14 for 44. UGH!
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Post by ltrain38 on Dec 22, 2013 17:18:52 GMT -5
I think calling out a player for having quit takes it too far. This season is disappointing. Some guys may be playing frustrated and forcing things. But I doubt they've "quit" and I'm not about to dump on individuals, especially guys who were so important to last season's run.
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Post by lwc4591 on Dec 22, 2013 17:21:59 GMT -5
I wish I could say we were average but we can't beat average teams like Miami, Northern Iowa and Manhattan so what are we.
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Post by lwc4591 on Dec 22, 2013 17:24:57 GMT -5
38 I didn't say Garland quit it just looks like he is going through the motions at times and wouldn't be surprised if he and G were banging heads..
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Post by durenduren on Dec 22, 2013 17:29:28 GMT -5
A10, I got news for ya. We're further in the "mediocre or suck boat" than a handful of teams you noted.
Time to face the music. We just aren't good.
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Post by lwc4591 on Dec 22, 2013 17:32:46 GMT -5
A10 out of the seven teams you named (9 games) I think as of now we lose at least 3 if not 4 games. If we lose 4 of those 9 we will probably end up 6-10 or 7-9 if things go good and I doubt 6-10 puts us in the number 7 spot. Anyone of those teams (including Fordham)can beat us which is how far we have fallen.
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Post by lasalle69bestever on Dec 22, 2013 17:38:14 GMT -5
Is it my imagination, or have there been a handful of games where Jerrell gets off fast with eight or so points - and then sits down for a good five minutes? And oftentimes good things do not happen in those five minutes or so? Like the team becomes guard shooting oriented (the 14-44 type thing). It didn't happen precisely that way today - it was Duren with the 8 quick points - but the "O' often seems to start off OK until JW is pulled.
Then when Jerrell comes back in the offense has become discombobulated. And it never functions as smoothly afterward? I mean - it's like it begins functioning smoothly and then sitting JW and the substitution patterns mess things up.
( With some exceptions ).
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Post by a10champion15 on Dec 22, 2013 17:40:30 GMT -5
I think our schedule favorable which is why I give us the slight advantage in the mediocre suck boat.
We could very well lose a few of those games.
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Post by lwc4591 on Dec 22, 2013 17:47:09 GMT -5
Bestever you may be on to something because last year in the tourney G without Zack had no choice but to play Jerrell more and it worked out great. G's substitutions have confused me on a number of occasions.
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Post by lasalle69bestever on Dec 22, 2013 17:52:02 GMT -5
BTW - Zack had one of the weakest double-doubles I've ever witnessed. (11pts, 11 reb). I don't think he had a good game at all.
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Post by lwc4591 on Dec 22, 2013 17:54:14 GMT -5
Bestever I tend to agree but our guards have been killing us in almost every game not the bigs and remember the bigs play off what the guards can create which isn't much these days.
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Post by durenduren on Dec 22, 2013 18:09:30 GMT -5
Bestever you may be on to something because last year in the tourney G without Zack had no choice but to play Jerrell more and it worked out great. G's substitutions have confused me on a number of occasions. I'll pull up an old post I did after crunching some major numbers on Jerrell minus Zack when I get to my computer. Long story short, the numbers aren't much different, other than speculating that it allows him to stay in a flow more.
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Post by jellybean on Dec 22, 2013 18:52:04 GMT -5
I think calling out a player for having quit takes it too far. This season is disappointing. Some guys may be playing frustrated and forcing things. But I doubt they've "quit" and I'm not about to dump on individuals, especially guys who were so important to last season's run. I agree with you 100%. To say someone has quit is about the worse thing you can say about an athlete especially a college kid in my opinion. I will say that Garland has been the brunt of G's wrath all season for whatever reason. It definitely has effected the young man. I wish the coach would single out others. It seems as if some players never get criticism. I also think this "grand experiment" for bring him off the bench isn't working. Garland has seen his overall minutes decline and his scoring is down since becoming the 6th man. Meanwhile we have two guards who aren't offensive threats for the most part. DJ Peterson is getting way too many minutes. HUGE problem today was lack of depth. After saying something positive about Garland(granted had a tough day), we got zip from the bench compared to Miami. If you look at Peterson, Lewis, Brown and Dunn, you saw 0-2/0-1/2-4 for 2 points in 43 minutes with 1 rebound, 1 assist, 3 turnovers, zero steals or blocks. Totally unacceptable. Can't compete. Miami was a step up in class to use a horse racing analogy. They were bigger, longer, quicker, faster and stronger at practically every position. Their guards shot over our guards. Our guards were a step behind the entire game. They pounded us on offensive rebounds and jumped over us on alley oops.
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Post by jellybean on Dec 22, 2013 18:55:40 GMT -5
I tried to be optimistic but now I am very concerned that this team will not finish above .500. Garland looks like he has quit and man these guys can't shoot to save their ass. Miami is average but had little trouble beating us as has any solid or good team. We are good against bad teams but don't have a prayer against average or above average teams. It is going to be a long season and all positive talk has all but disappeared. Sure looks to me that you said he quit.
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Post by kylebabcock139 on Dec 22, 2013 19:04:49 GMT -5
After a dominant performance over Wagner, this was a highly disappointing loss. I know Miami is a much better team than Wagner, but I would've liked to see a better effort from the team. They looked flat out there and Zack didn't look good at all, although the box score would lead you to think otherwise (11 points, 11 rebounds).
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Post by lasalle69bestever on Dec 22, 2013 19:12:29 GMT -5
I might be wrong, but I think when Garland comes in - Jerrell goes out. This might not be a good idea. Going small with poor outside shooting greatly detracts from Garland's strength. His ability to get by his man to take it to the hoop. If Zack is the only big, the opposition bigs can just swat Garland all night because Zack is really not the scoring threat that JW is.
Might it not be better to have JW and Tyrone together more? Tyrone is trying, but I don't recall him getting his shots blocked at anywhere near this rate last year. I suspect it must be truly tough for him.
Just thinking out loud because our offense is not even close to clicking against any opponent but Wagner.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2013 19:21:49 GMT -5
6 -6 @ THIS POINT IS AMAZING BASED UPON HOW THE TEAM HAS LOOKED, CHRISTMAS TIME ALL, WE NEED TO LOOK @ THE POSITIVES.... Tyreke with perhaps one exception cannot blow by anybody, he's hurt...
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Post by durenduren on Dec 22, 2013 19:30:47 GMT -5
Bestever you may be on to something because last year in the tourney G without Zack had no choice but to play Jerrell more and it worked out great. G's substitutions have confused me on a number of occasions. I'll pull up an old post I did after crunching some major numbers on Jerrell minus Zack when I get to my computer. Long story short, the numbers aren't much different, other than speculating that it allows him to stay in a flow more. This is from last season: With Zack Averages Over 27 Games w/ Wright - 2.6 PF/22.8 Mins, 9.8 Pts 0.11 Fouls Per Minute 0.43 Points Per Minute
Without Zack Averages Over 7 Games w/o Wright - 2.9 PF/28.25 Mins, 13.4 Pts 0.10 Fouls Per Minute 0.47 Points Per Minute --------------------------------------------- GW - 2 PF/32 Mins, 16 Pts SLU - 3 PF/32 Mins, 6 Pts Butler - 3 PF/27 Mins, 14 Pts Boise - 2 PF/33 Mins, 13 Pts K State - 4 PF/25 Mins, 21 Pts Ole Miss - 3 PF/27 Mins, 8 Pts Wichita - 3 PF/22 Mins, 16 Pts ---------------------------------------------
His foul rate and points per minute played are virtually identical, he just had more time on the court. I don't think looking at last year is relevant at this point, because our game plan incorporates the bigs in such a different way, and Steve Zack is far from the player he was last year. But at the end of the day, the bigs aren't the problems here, it's the guards. Jerrell and Steve can't win by themselves.
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Post by lwc4591 on Dec 22, 2013 20:29:44 GMT -5
Jellybean correct me if I am wrong but I thought I said he looks like he quit not that I know he quit. I made the statement based on a possibility that T.Garland and G may be banging heads on the fact that Garland is not starting. Only Garland knows if he quit or any other player for that matter but how many times have you watched any sporting event and the player looks disinterested or you say to yourself his head in not in the game. That is where I am coming from I didn't mean for it to sound like T.Garland is a problem child.
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Post by lwc4591 on Dec 22, 2013 20:43:23 GMT -5
Duren what I was trying to say is J.Wright gets pulled to often for my liking and I would actually like to see Zack and Wright on the floor together as much as possible unless we are playing a small quick opponent.
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Post by lasallescreamer on Dec 22, 2013 22:42:54 GMT -5
IMO. a big problem is that role players are not developing or producing.Z, JW. TD3, Sam, and TG are what they are-don't expect something different from them except for more consistant shooting%. But not getting much elsewhere.DJ still has not found shot that he seemed to have as a Frosh.Lewis does not look like off. threat,and Rohan is a small forward who does not have a mid range game. JD seems incapable of playing but it has not hurt bec. JW and Z are covering the minutes.Without a bench contribution, difficult to win unless starters are having monster years which they are not. Think Coach and players have to find way to have fun again and create less stress on starters who have to produce. We have talent to go to NIT but need to play with all out abandon and passion.
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Post by Kovy on Dec 22, 2013 22:47:00 GMT -5
Didn't get to watch the game live today but after reading this thread I think I'll have to skip watching it like I planned.
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Post by cpico on Dec 23, 2013 7:15:01 GMT -5
I'm past saying things like "dumb play" and "embarrassing" one year after a Sweet 16 year. Legitimately, anything the team gives me over the past five years is gravy. I think it's a good team that hasn't found it's rhythm for a lot of reasons. But I'm not using "embarrassing" or anything like that. That's St. Joe's talk. I partially agree. People with the "embarrassing" have truly short memories. And we're way up in the ledger as fans in recent history. You're right. But this is not a good team. They've had 12 games to show ANY signs of that, and they've not done it. They're a mediocre team, looking at beating the Bonvanture's, Fordham's, and Duquesne's of the world, and scaring absolutely no one in the upper tier of the conference. Maybe a 7 seed in the A-10. The expectation this team had going into the season and the effort and performance they've displayed so far is embarrassing. It's just a shame that some people won't admit it. Last season was great, but the horrible play by the team this season following up last season is totally unacceptable and again it's weird how some fans on this board can't see just how important this season was to continue to move the program forward. So yes, I will use the word embarrassing because the way the team has played is just that.
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Post by coachd on Dec 23, 2013 11:03:18 GMT -5
I do think Garland is the main problem. He had no rebounds and missed 6 of 7 shots.
I think Zack and Wright are the top two performers for the team so far this year.
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Post by lasallescreamer on Dec 23, 2013 11:46:39 GMT -5
TG could be playing better and hence is a part of the problem. But, he is also the solution. He is super talented-probably the most gifted on the team. I would like to see him play 34 min with the instruction to shoot at will and to play his game. I always want to see team play, but sometimes a star has to have some freedom. If we get him going, it would be another scorer, along with TD3, JW, and Z. Let Sam, KL, and DJ be more complimentary.We saw his talent last year. Its there. He and Coach have got to find it. Go win 5 in a row and its not too late. Win 8 in a row and we are again talking post season.Lets Go Explorers!
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Post by mookie on Dec 23, 2013 12:10:19 GMT -5
I think Garland kind of did shoot at will early in the season but was reigned in because of his struggles from the field.
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Post by talkinbball on Dec 23, 2013 14:44:48 GMT -5
I would like to know what has transpired to turn the player who I thought would be a prolific go to scorer all season in to the Tyrone Garland we are experiencing now. This is pure speculation but have to believe there is more to this than is currently known.
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Post by mookie on Dec 23, 2013 15:02:24 GMT -5
talkinbball - I think maybe it's a combination of things, one being that many of us overestimated Garland's abilities. I thought he was good for instant offense where he wasn't going to be a focal point of the defense. Now that he is, he's struggling with consistency. The other thing could be that he's putting too much pressure on himself. As another posted stated, his shots are getting blocked at an alarming rate this year and that could be due to the fact that teams don't respect him or the team's ability to make jumpers.
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Post by lasallescreamer on Dec 23, 2013 17:34:55 GMT -5
The season is at risk. Nobody knows what the exact answer is.But I do know we are getting as much as possible from JW and Z. Duren is giving as much as he can given the injury. DJ, RB and KL cannot save the season. While Sam could give us more, I do not see him trying to take over the offense. That leaves TG!!!Is he misses his next 50 shots we r no worse off than if he sits on the bench.The goal is to have a big season. It cannot be done without TG.
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