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Post by a10champion15 on Jun 12, 2013 10:06:19 GMT -5
lltrain I think I may have read the same article which is why I was so irritated.
I have to disagree about NBA players personality while there are a number of great players like Griffin there is an overwhelming amount of bullies that only care about themselves on the court aka Carmelo Anthony being one player. Remember the game against the sixers where he smacked halls in the back of the head.
The NHL has by far the players with the most personality. They play with heart and you rarely have suspensions due to behavior and illegal hits while it does happen. Boston as you prob know is in the stanley cup right now and after what has happened to that city you cant argue with that. The way they been playing throughout the playoffs has been extrodinary to watch. Boston fans sang the star spangled banner in the first game back after the bombing and brought many players to tears. You dont get much more heart and passion than that.
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Post by coqui900 on Jun 12, 2013 10:07:12 GMT -5
There have been a few pieces over the years about Gary Neal and all of them talked about the La Salle case. Neal gave quotes about growing from the incident and trying to put it behind him. That's all he can really do.
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Post by ltrain38 on Jun 12, 2013 10:07:45 GMT -5
I can't say how many articles I've seen today praising Neal without any mention of La Salle or what happened that led to his dismissal from the team. I know he was acquitted, and therefore, entitled to move on with his life, but the facts of that case are ugly and a huge part of his story. I'm really pulling for the Heat now, otherwise it'll be "Gary Neal, NBA Finals hero" forever. I can't stand the thought. I mean, if they're just saying "Gary Neal was great last night" I don't need them to add "He was also accused of rape in 2004" but if it's a story about his "journey" from La Salle to Towson to Europe to the D League to starring in an NBA finals game, you'd like them to mention the inciting incident wasn't something to be especially proud of. Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant.
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Post by stlexplorer on Jun 12, 2013 10:18:43 GMT -5
Being found innocent and actually being innocent are 2 completely different things. I'm all for a guy fixing his life and making himself better but the media is acting like the guy beat cancer, give me a break
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Jun 12, 2013 10:20:35 GMT -5
They play with heart and you rarely have suspensions due to behavior and illegal hits while it does happen. What what what what what what what?
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Post by ltrain38 on Jun 12, 2013 10:25:33 GMT -5
Not going to knock hockey, because I love it and played for years, but the culture of the NHL actively discourages expressions of personality from its players.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Jun 12, 2013 10:26:56 GMT -5
In this shortened season, there have been 21 NHL suspensions (and clammor for triple that at a minimum). Last year there were 58. Almost every single one is for a player showing dangerous disregard and/or injuring an opponent. I love hockey, far more than I love basketball, but to pretend NHL players are these super nice dudes while NBA players are all thugs is ... well ... I'll just use the word wrong.
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Post by theneumann64 on Jun 12, 2013 10:32:51 GMT -5
Being found innocent and actually being innocent are 2 completely different things. I'm all for a guy fixing his life and making himself better but the media is acting like the guy beat cancer, give me a break This.
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Post by MisterD on Jun 12, 2013 10:33:07 GMT -5
Not going to knock hockey, because I love it and played for years, but the culture of the NHL actively discourages expressions of personality from its players. And people react very differently to hockey incidents and basketball incidents. Domi going into the crowd was "awesome". 3 player suicides in 2 years have been mostly forgotten. Pretty much no one knows Craig MacTavish is no different than Leonard Little or Dante Stallworth. Its framing, not a lack of incidents.
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Post by a10champion15 on Jun 12, 2013 10:35:43 GMT -5
I didnt mean that they are nice guys I didnt say that they have personaity. It is hockey an extremely physical sport. Look how many players this year in the NBA have been suspended or fined and its over 60. Basketball isnt nearly as physical as basketball. Not many players in the NHL are being suspended for drug use either. www.eskimo.com/~pbender/fines.html#12-13
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Post by MisterD on Jun 12, 2013 10:49:56 GMT -5
Not many players in the NHL are being suspended for drug use either. I count 4 NBA suspensions for drugs in the past 4 seasons, all PEDs.
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Post by MisterD on Jun 12, 2013 10:52:43 GMT -5
Apologies for helping get this off topic, we can move it elsewhere if you want to continue the debate on why NBA players do worse things than NHL players despite NHL players being suspended more often for doing bad things.
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Post by MisterD on Jun 12, 2013 10:54:32 GMT -5
Being found innocent and actually being innocent are 2 completely different things. I'm all for a guy fixing his life and making himself better but the media is acting like the guy beat cancer, give me a break Yup, The Onion headline in real life: "College Basketball Star Heroically Overcomes Tragic Rape He Committed"
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Post by coqui900 on Jun 12, 2013 10:55:14 GMT -5
Mo Cheeks coming to the court to rescue the girl who forgot the words during the national anthem trumps all national anthem stories.
I don't think I've ever heard a hockey player say something more than "You know, we just have to skate hard" in interviews. To be fair, I'm not a hockey guy. I like it and I'll watch a playoff game but I won't go out of my way to do so. But those guys are snoozes off the court.
Is there a hockey version of Charles Barkley on TNT? The TNT shows are absolutely great because they put having fun above any actual analysis. This even includes the addition of Shaq, who mumbles through everything when he's not being annoying about Birdman Birdman.
I'm not a fan of Grantland and Jalen Rose irritates me. But even his "Five favorite cities for African-American NBA players" was pretty great.
The Greg Pop interviews have long been my favorites. So entertaining and hilarious in a wrestler sort of way.
Heck, even David Stern is entertaining. He pulled off his Mr. McMahon routine fabulously at the draft this year.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 11:08:18 GMT -5
Yes, having graduated from La Salle I can truthfully say Gary Neal is the only person in the history of the campus who has ever had consensual sex with a partner who was drunk. Of course, he is also the only one to ever have a threesome, as that is unheard of on a college campus (especially one with stringent Catholic values). Thankfully we have not had to expel any other students for such acts. As previously mentioned, I am more then open to cure my ignorance with the damning facts that will change my opinion on the situation. Other than the testimony of the girl, I have not yet seen any facts. I am open to being proven wrong, however. Let's not confuse the word consensual with "she didn't say no" especially if the testimony presented by the prosecutor was that she was too drunk to possibly say no. The various so called "defense" witness testimonies from Cleaves and Hahn were potentially as damaging to the university than the alleged act itself. Unlike them, Neal seemed to keep a low profile during the trial, relying on his presumed innocence instead of prefabricated excuse stories. Let's not dredge up his past though. There is no reason to. I'm happy the man has made positive turnaround with his life instead of letting fear of the public eye, or other regrets, haunt him. At the same time I don't think there's a need to have any more feelings about him on our end. It bothers me that some people are going to intentionally associate his name with La Salle when it is clearly not a relationship to be proud of, not because of ill will, but because of the unavoidable reminders that come with it. And if I were Gary, I would feel ashamed of myself every time someone makes the mere association. He's moved on, so that's good for him and inconsequential for us.
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Post by calsufan on Jun 12, 2013 11:24:16 GMT -5
I agree, I'm just saying you'll be hearing a lot about his "journey" in the media the next few days. +1. The guy's a scumbag.
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Post by MisterD on Jun 12, 2013 11:29:08 GMT -5
I'm happy the man has made positive turnaround with his life instead of letting fear of the public eye, or other regrets, haunt him. Glad to see the stigma of having committed a sexual assault doesn't still haunt him. Whatever. Put me deeply in the other category that hopes he doesn't escape association with the incident. Its awful, but its awful because of him, not awful for him.
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Post by luhoopsfan on Jun 12, 2013 11:40:11 GMT -5
My take is this:
Yes, Gary neal did in fact play ball at La Salle, he is listed on the all-time roster, etc. To reference him as a frormer guard at La Salle is an accurate statement and perhaps if we didn't make the run to the Sweet 16 this year no one would bring it up because of how far off the radar we had fallen. However, I choose not to consider him a part of the program and I don't overtly root for his success, I am indifferent and do not care for him at all.
Gary and Mike made a terrible decision and I'm sure many (if not all) of us did things between the ages of 19 and 22 we wouldn't be proud of. My problem with this scenario is that their poor choice set in motion a series of events that was, for me, the worst possible light an institution could ever be cast in. This is a place that I love dearly and hold close to my heart because so many great people there shaped who I am and put me in a position to enjoy tremendous success professionally after graduation. Despite all the things I knew about this place, their decision created a media firestorm that allowed others without the first-hand knowledge of the school to form an opinion that made it appear as though i attended a place with poor values and character. in some ways, where you attended school is often a reflection of you personally and to have people call me out regarding my alma mater for all the wrong reasons was personally hurtful to me.
Further to my own story, their decisions allowed people like Billy Hahn to somehow be cast as a victim in all of this when in reality (as evidenced by his testimony on the stand) was a total scumbag with no respect for females despite having a wife and daughter of his own. From there, the fallout of the program being decimated and brought to its knees lead to several terrible seasons on the court for players that were in no way involved but dealt with the repercussions in their own ways.
Did a jury determine that his decision to have intercourse with a woman who was vomiting in a sink while passed out was worthy of being found guilty of a crime? No. But what he did to this poor woman was by no means "innocent" as far as I'm concerned.
because of the damage he did to the reputation of our University and not accepting responsibility for the fact that as a basketball player you need to hold yourself to a higher standard I will never like him. I will forgive him for those decisions but I will never support his career as a basketball player and am indifferent to his success or failure.
The only reason i even think of Gary neal is because you see him on TV from time to time, I haven't thought of Mike Cleaves in a long time, I don't know where he is or what he's doing and I honestly don't care.
My opinion of someone does not have to be solely based on the fact that something they did was or was not a "crime", I believe what he did was immoral and wrong and i can honestly say that I hung around with a lot of people that did a lot of REALLY questionable things around 20th & Olney, but never did I hear of something like this, so to say that this is something that happens "all the time" is a bit outrageous and misguided.
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Post by a10champion15 on Jun 12, 2013 12:01:37 GMT -5
I apologize for getting the topic of track. I love college basketball but also love hockey obviously. Like the spurs but fuck gary neal lets go back to the 90's NBA..miss it.
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Post by 23won on Jun 12, 2013 12:02:10 GMT -5
The real focus of this discussion should be on the integrity of the institution and the recognition that, despite a lot of media criticism directed at La Salle especially from SA Smith, Jerardi and others, La Salle did the right thing. The same could be said for Xavier when it dismissed Dez Wells last year. Wells and Neal could have returned with star power, been leading scorers and received PC protection from the media (e.g., until proven guilty) at a place like Temple (hello Khalif), Louisville, Syracuse, Cincy, etc. To its credit, La Salle had no tolerance for it, which speaks volumes for the school, and it is why I'm glad I went there and it is why my kids will go there.
The idiocy of it all is the role of media in our society. The media mercilessly attacked La Salle for taking the morale high road and then decimated Penn State for a morale failure that was not established in a court of law with due process, the right to present a defense and cross examine, etc. In each case, the media acted as judge and jury, which is a really dangerous thing. I have yet to see a recent story, but are you folks saying that the media (or some element of it) is lauding Neal for what he "overcame" from injustice by La Salle. If so, please post; in this case, you'd have to seriously question the integrity of that media source.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 12:21:11 GMT -5
I'm happy the man has made positive turnaround with his life instead of letting fear of the public eye, or other regrets, haunt him. Glad to see the stigma of having committed a sexual assault doesn't still haunt him. Whatever. Put me deeply in the other category that hopes he doesn't escape association with the incident. Its awful, but its awful because of him, not awful for him. I actually 100% agree with you, when I'm not being quoted out of context. I said good for him, inconsequential for us. Good Basketball doesn't fix the blemish he and Cleaves left on La Salle. He could be the MVP of the NBA for 5 years in a row and it would in no way be good or bad for us. I certainly don't mean to say that his performance in the NBA righted a wrong, however for him personally, I thought I should say it is quite admirable that he was able to change his life for the good instead of continuing down that wrong path like so many others do, or wallowing in self pity pretending he "didn't deserve what happened to him" (ie, by him). Seriously, I don't care about Gary Neal! but good for him, anyway.
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Post by coqui900 on Jun 12, 2013 12:22:38 GMT -5
No matter your major, you're never too far away from a professor posing an ethical question in the classroom at La Salle. And we practiced what we preached w/ Nea, Cleaves and Hahn.
I think the only people who remember the incident are La Salle folks and the area's college sports fans. Other than that, it's not anything anyone remembers. Or if they do, they certainly don't remember any of the details.
I think one of the reasons for this is because the administration made the right call.
I think this would be different if we went the other way and covered for Neal. Then we'd have actual journalists from both the city and around the country hammering us (and rightfully) for callously supporting a basketball player over a woman from off-campus who was taken advantage of. We'd have something like the current Rutgers coverage with heads rolling and the like.
Instead, we were ripped by Stephen A. Smith and Dick Jerardi. Absolutely no one with an ounce of sense pays any attention to those guys.
If any parent didn't sent their kid to La Salle because of Stephen A. Smith, chances are they weren't getting into La Salle anyways.
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Post by MisterD on Jun 12, 2013 12:43:14 GMT -5
Gary and Mike made a terrible decision and I'm sure many (if not all) of us did things between the ages of 19 and 22 we wouldn't be proud of. Sentences like that make me want to punch a wall. (And punching a wall would be a terrible decision and something I wouldn't be proud of so, really, I'm like Gary or Mike. Except I'm in my 30s. Wow. I never thought of it like that! We all make mistakes!)
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Post by mookie on Jun 12, 2013 13:05:50 GMT -5
We don't have to talk about it. Gary Neal is a player in the NBA who had a great game in the NBA Finals. He is not an alum and, like the University and many other alums, want to put that in the past.
He's done exactly that and the only reason he would talk about LaSalle is that his wife graduated from LaSalle. Other than that, it's the past...no reason for any of us to talk about it. He's not dwelling on it and neither should we.
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Post by calsufan on Jun 12, 2013 13:47:04 GMT -5
The real focus of this discussion should be on the integrity of the institution and the recognition that, despite a lot of media criticism directed at La Salle especially from SA Smith, Jerardi and others, La Salle did the right thing. The same could be said for Xavier when it dismissed Dez Wells last year. Wells and Neal could have returned with star power, been leading scorers and received PC protection from the media (e.g., until proven guilty) at a place like Temple (hello Khalif), Louisville, Syracuse, Cincy, etc. To its credit, La Salle had no tolerance for it, which speaks volumes for the school, and it is why I'm glad I went there and it is why my kids will go there. The idiocy of it all is the role of media in our society. The media mercilessly attacked La Salle for taking the morale high road and then decimated Penn State for a morale failure that was not established in a court of law with due process, the right to present a defense and cross examine, etc. In each case, the media acted as judge and jury, which is a really dangerous thing. I have yet to see a recent story, but are you folks saying that the media (or some element of it) is lauding Neal for what he "overcame" from injustice by La Salle. If so, please post; in this case, you'd have to seriously question the integrity of that media source. Add Dayton into the mix of bringing back players that they shouldn't. Matt Kavanaugh will be back next year after having been tossed out of school for alleged issues with a 17 year old freshman. I shake my head when I see schools do that. If he deserved to be suspended for one year for some type of sexual misconduct, why is it okay to bring him back the next year? Because he plays ball? Disgusting.
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Post by coqui900 on Jun 12, 2013 13:56:03 GMT -5
We didn't even let Stardhardinger into school.
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Post by durenduren on Jun 12, 2013 15:44:57 GMT -5
We didn't even let Stardhardinger into school. He really blew that, didn't he?!
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Post by ltrain38 on Jun 12, 2013 19:06:46 GMT -5
La Salle did the right thing. The same could be said for Xavier when it dismissed Dez Wells last year. Wells and Neal could have returned with star power, been leading scorers and received PC protection from the media (e.g., until proven guilty) at a place like Temple (hello Khalif), Louisville, Syracuse, Cincy, etc. Wouldn't quite equate what Wyatt did to what Neal and Cleaves were up to. Prostitution, actually not even close to being a victimless crime, is not the same. Whether or not a player should be dismissed for something like that is another issue.
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Post by 23won on Jun 12, 2013 22:23:35 GMT -5
The issue, 38, is not whether one alleged offense is worse than another or whether someone gets exonerated for a defense attorney making a layup case burden of proof of "a reasonable doubt" of proof.
The issue is whether an institution has integrity, per my OP. I'd bet Brother Mike and the admin would not have let Khalif play for the Explorers in a similar situation. I also can't see the La Salle AD and company delaying the prosecution long enough for Khalif to finish his senior season. I can't seeing that happen at 20th and Olney. On Broad street with the big East strivers, it's a whole other ball game. Maybe TU has hooked up with its long lost cousin Memphis, in the Big East. Good riddance. Their fans and Admin are equally deplorable.
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Post by coqui900 on Jun 12, 2013 23:38:06 GMT -5
There is absolutely no way we would let Wyatt back on the team.
Can you imagine what would have happened if we had a coach who pulled something like Pitino?
I never want to sell our soul.
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