|
Post by theneumann64 on Jun 11, 2013 22:35:33 GMT -5
Gary Neal. Huge game in Game 3 of the NBA Finals. Will be a huge story of "redemption" tomorrow on Sportscenter, Mike and Mike, etc.
How do you feel about him, the situation, etc.? I will add my thoughts tomorrow because I'm going to bed now, but figured I'd get a post up tonight.
And please, spare me the "why even discuss this" crap. It's a story. And this is a message board.
|
|
MisterD
The Baptist Himself
Voted Most Popular Poster 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 6,407
|
Post by MisterD on Jun 11, 2013 22:40:24 GMT -5
"Fuck him" is about my only thought.
|
|
MisterD
The Baptist Himself
Voted Most Popular Poster 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 6,407
|
Post by MisterD on Jun 11, 2013 22:41:58 GMT -5
And what's the "redemption" here? His sexual assault is less bad because he's popping some three pointers in the finals? Finals MVP or sitting on a couch like I am, my opinion of Neal isn't changing.
|
|
|
Post by theneumann64 on Jun 11, 2013 22:45:57 GMT -5
I agree, I'm just saying you'll be hearing a lot about his "journey" in the media the next few days.
|
|
|
Post by scarletexplorer on Jun 11, 2013 22:46:28 GMT -5
And what's the "redemption" here? His sexual assault is less bad because he's popping some three pointers in the finals? It worked for Kobe.
|
|
|
Post by exploreresq on Jun 11, 2013 23:20:30 GMT -5
His sexual assault is not less bad because he is making 3 pointers in the Finals. His sexual assault is less bad because he was acquitted of all charges. He was innocent of any crime, and has since recovered quite nicely in his life.
Good for him. I hope there are not many stories about it because I would prefer for the rape scandal to not be plastered on National TV.
|
|
MisterD
The Baptist Himself
Voted Most Popular Poster 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 6,407
|
Post by MisterD on Jun 11, 2013 23:24:08 GMT -5
Whoa. Acquitted I obviously can't argue, but I really don't see how you can use the word innocent.
|
|
|
Post by exploreresq on Jun 11, 2013 23:25:43 GMT -5
|
|
MisterD
The Baptist Himself
Voted Most Popular Poster 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 6,407
|
Post by MisterD on Jun 11, 2013 23:27:41 GMT -5
Sure, presumed innocent, but by that logic everyone who escapes conviction is innocent.
|
|
|
Post by exploreresq on Jun 11, 2013 23:37:09 GMT -5
And by your logic, getting falsely accused of a crime taints you as a criminal forever.
|
|
MisterD
The Baptist Himself
Voted Most Popular Poster 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 6,407
|
Post by MisterD on Jun 11, 2013 23:47:36 GMT -5
If applied universally, sure. I assure you I don't.
|
|
|
Post by exploreresq on Jun 11, 2013 23:50:27 GMT -5
So a serious question then- what makes Gary Neal different, other then the negative effect it had on our beloved university and team?
What makes it clear the jury was wrong and he actually raped her?
I wasn't as plugged into La Salle back then as I am now. So maybe in what I have read about the situation I have missed something.
|
|
|
Post by Classless on Jun 11, 2013 23:50:42 GMT -5
"Neal and Cleaves maintained they had consensual sex with the woman. A jury acquitted both men, discounting prosecutors' contention the woman involved was too drunk to consent to sex." Gary Neal would not be the first person to be falsely accused of rape and he won't be the last. He played well for the Explorers while he was here and I don't blame him for wanting to leave town after being charged with rape. There is no reason to not applaud him for his success.
|
|
|
Post by SICguy84 on Jun 12, 2013 0:10:20 GMT -5
Regardless of what a Philadelphia jury of his peers got wrong, he grossly violated La Sallian student code of conduct, and university/catholic community standards. Expelled on those grounds.
|
|
|
Post by exploreresq on Jun 12, 2013 0:26:15 GMT -5
Yes, having graduated from La Salle I can truthfully say Gary Neal is the only person in the history of the campus who has ever had consensual sex with a partner who was drunk. Of course, he is also the only one to ever have a threesome, as that is unheard of on a college campus (especially one with stringent Catholic values).
Thankfully we have not had to expel any other students for such acts.
As previously mentioned, I am more then open to cure my ignorance with the damning facts that will change my opinion on the situation. Other than the testimony of the girl, I have not yet seen any facts. I am open to being proven wrong, however.
|
|
|
Post by SICguy84 on Jun 12, 2013 0:52:44 GMT -5
Yes, having graduated from La Salle I can truthfully say Gary Neal is the only person in the history of the campus who has ever had consensual sex with a partner who was drunk. Of course, he is also the only one to ever have a threesome, as that is unheard of on a college campus (especially one with stringent Catholic values). Thankfully we have not had to expel any other students for such acts. As previously mentioned, I am more then open to cure my ignorance with the damning facts that will change my opinion on the situation. Other than the testimony of the girl, I have not yet seen any facts. I am open to being proven wrong, however. Well my insensitive friend, the “everybody is doing it” defense hardly holds water when the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania charges a student with rape and a slew of other felonies, see below. The nature of the sex, which you and a misguided jury so callously opined as “consensual” was disputed by the victim and the Commonwealth. A private, religious, academic institution expels in the best interest of the university and the safety of its students. I guess you would have had the school disregard its code of conduct, reinstated Neal following his acquittal and allowed him to continue on scholarship as a highly visible student athlete who would represent the high ideals of La Salle University. SIMPLE ASSAULT RAPE RECKLESSLY ENDANGERING ANOTHER PERSON INVOLUNTARY DEVIATE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE INDECENT ASSAULT FALSE IMPRISONMENT ATTEMP INVOL DEVIATE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY SEXUAL ASSAULT UNLAWFUL RESTRAINT INDECENT EXPOSURE AGGRAVATED INDECENT ASSAULT INDECENT EXPOSURE
|
|
|
Post by exploreresq on Jun 12, 2013 6:20:12 GMT -5
Since my goal was never to offend or be insensitive, let me clear up my point.
I've never said La Salle should have done anything differently.
I've never said "everybody's doing it" defends rape.
All I am saying is, if the guy was proven innocent, why are we still crucifying him years later? His life has changed, La Salle has changed. I would hope that when he saw La Salle make the sweet 16 his thoughts weren't vitriol. I don't see why we would have those thoughts for him succeeding - unless we assume he was guilty. I hope that everyone is at a better place in their life (including the female), and that all parties could move on (including the La Salle community). Hence why I hope today in the news, the entire incident doesn't even get mentioned.
Which brings me back to my question, which has always been a sincere one. I was not as plugged in to La Salle at the time as others on this board. I only know of the situation by reading old news stories. Is there something I am missing? As I said from the first post, I am willing to stand corrected.
|
|
|
Post by theneumann64 on Jun 12, 2013 7:20:31 GMT -5
He was acquitted, not "proven innocent." The jury said the girl was not too drunk to consent when Neal and Cleaves "ran a train" on her (from Cleaves's testimony) as she vomited into the sink. They found both of their semen on her clothes and body. This happened, it's not like the jury determined Neal was in Kansas City the night of the event.
And here's my thing, to me, it's less about what happened at this point. I don't believe athletes are role models, and although the facts of this case go way beyond "drunk college students hooking up" it's a bit different than if he held a knife to her throat, I will concede that.
But I was a Freshman in the Fall of 2004. I didn't love have microphones shoved in my face as we tried to move in on a pretty big day in all of our lives. I didn't like that the campus was on lockdown for essentially 9 months, out of fear of more negative publicity. They made rules about having members of the opposite sex on your floor after 10PM because of those 2. The Liquor Control Board raided all kinds of frat parties arresting people. I cannot emphasize enough how much the school was like a police state for that whole year.
Then there's what it did to the basketball team. I'm off to work right now, but I'll add to my thoughts this morning.
|
|
|
Post by thehawkisdead on Jun 12, 2013 7:21:13 GMT -5
All I am saying is, if the guy was proven innocent, why are we still crucifying him years later? Your repeated use of the word 'innocent' is what's prolonging this. He may be 'innocent' in the eyes of the law, but in everyday usage 'found not guilty' is not the same as 'innocent.' I'm sure you realize that. Plain and simple, the guy humiliated the school and put us through hell by his actions. If someone believes in redemption from something like that, then good for you. I guess I'm just not that big of a person. Should I hold my breath until the media pens an eloquent tale of Mike Cleaves' redemption?
|
|
MisterD
The Baptist Himself
Voted Most Popular Poster 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 6,407
|
Post by MisterD on Jun 12, 2013 8:19:20 GMT -5
I don't think anyone disputes that there's a gray area when it comes to drunken hookups. A girl throwing up in a sink while two guys take turns is rape. Its not a gray area. Its not youthful indiscretion or a mistake or anything like that. Its rape. So, from my original post, fuck him.
|
|
|
Post by coqui900 on Jun 12, 2013 8:32:07 GMT -5
This is what I think:
1) What Gary Neal and Michael Cleaves did was completely wrong. They admittedly had their way with a girl who was passed out drunk vomiting into a sink. That's as horrible an act as a person can do.
2) Innocent in a court of law is different. It boiled down to he-said/she-said. That's the nature of our legal system.
3) Cleaves was 22. Neal was 19. I never did anything close to what they did when I was that age. However, I certainly made a lot of mistakes in my life. What they did were far from "youthful indiscretions" but let's also hope they were able to grow up from what they did and used the gift they got from a jury to become better people.
More importantly, let's also hope the victim has been healed from what happened.
4) The biggest scum in this were Billy Hahn, Stephen A. Smith and Dick Jerardi. Billy showed his class on the jury stand. Stephen and Dick revealed their quality in their columns defending Hahn and the players. They weren't 22 and 19 years old. They were adults.
|
|
|
Post by lwc4591 on Jun 12, 2013 8:37:21 GMT -5
There is only one thing clear and that is Joe Paterno is guilty of all crimes even if he was never charged with any crimes (and in less than two weeks) mind you. Justice in America the old fashion way based solely on opinion with no facts to back it up.
|
|
MisterD
The Baptist Himself
Voted Most Popular Poster 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 6,407
|
Post by MisterD on Jun 12, 2013 8:54:48 GMT -5
3) Cleaves was 22. Neal was 19. I never did anything close to what they did when I was that age. However, I certainly made a lot of mistakes in my life. What they did were far from "youthful indiscretions" but let's also hope they were able to grow up from what they did and used the gift they got from a jury to become better people. More importantly, let's also hope the victim has been healed from what happened. Last sentence is why my take on those two won't ever change. We hope she's healed, but really, its always going to be there. She doesn't have the option of a clean start where it never happened and I imagine Neal being celebrated right now doesn't help. He wasn't found guilty, so he has every right to play in the NBA. I followed the case, so I have every right to continue saying "fuck him" and hoping that part of his past doesn't get washed out. (This is across the board. I stopped following the Rangers for a few weeks when they signed Billy Tibbets in the early 00s and would stop following the Yankees if they signed Josh Lueke. These aren't cases of drunken regret or a drunk yes when it would have been a sober no; they're aggressive acts against women who couldn't protect themselves.)
|
|
|
Post by spaceghost on Jun 12, 2013 8:59:46 GMT -5
Seriously, how can a lawyer not understand the difference between "proven innocent" and "not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt"? The jury could have acquitted him--and, legally, would have had to acquit him--if it thought he was only probably guilty of the criminal charges. To take the classic example, OJ was "acquitted" too, but his victims' family was still free to sue him for all of his money and the rest of us are still free to call him a murderer.
That said, go Spurs. Everyone else on that team is likeable enough by professional-athlete standards, and they play a beautiful style of basketball.
|
|
|
Post by a10champion15 on Jun 12, 2013 9:10:01 GMT -5
fuck Gary Neal just another scumbag in the NBA that unfortunately destroyed our reputation for a period of time. I really dont give two shits about the NBA, its terrible now a days no suprises its just all Lebron and ESPN loves it. Spurs Heat final who didnt see that coming.
|
|
|
Post by theneumann64 on Jun 12, 2013 9:20:40 GMT -5
So Gary Neal rapes a girl while at OUR SCHOOL, and it's somehow a referendum on the kind of guys in the NBA?
Don't turn this in to another tired anti-NBA thing. It's a) Unequivocally wrong and b) not the point of this thread.
|
|
|
Post by coqui900 on Jun 12, 2013 9:46:58 GMT -5
The NBA is filled with great people. The amount of knucklehead behavior in the NBA has been drastically reduced over the past few years. Most of it has come from the players themselves who have stepped up to not do dumb things like have guns and marijuana in speeding cars. I think, collectively, the players in the NBA show by far the most personality in any US sports league.
I love the Spurs so much. I think they play the best possible version of basketball when they have everything clicking. It's a bunch of unselfish superstars and great role players who look to make the extra pass and help on defense. Anyone who says they're boring is crazy. Manu is one of the single most entertaining players in league history.
I will never like that Heat team. The thing that annoys me the most is they don't seem to have any fun on the court. There's no joy in watching them play.
LeBron seems like he has absolutely no fun on the basketball court. It's a shame because, with his skill set, he should be the single most entertaining player in league history. It's the opposite of someone like Magic or Larry. Even MJ, as ruthless a competitor as we'll ever see, did things like shrug his shoulders after he made all those three-pointers.
So many of LeBron's peers play with emotion and joy. Dirk has his fist-pump. Steph Curry was a blast when he went crazy. The Pacers were always having fun trying to dunk on everything in sight or when Hibbert blocked Melo. I'm not a fan of KG but even his snarls are entertaining.
It stinks. LeBron on Cleveland was a blast to watch. They had all of those goofy pre-game "pictures" and the like. He did the pre-game chalk toss. Now it's just this cold facade. It's not even a bad-ass routine like my man Zach Randolph. I'd love for LeBron to make Jason Williams faces after his crazy passes.
I think some of it can be blamed on D-Wade. I used to love Wade more than any other player in the league. But he's become a complete and total whiner. He is absolutely awful at whining when he misses on a drive and not getting back on defense.
This Heat team is really good. But they should be a non-stop highlight factory. Instead they're kinda boring.
|
|
|
Post by theneumann64 on Jun 12, 2013 9:48:30 GMT -5
Nice Piece of Analysis.
|
|
|
Post by ltrain38 on Jun 12, 2013 9:55:06 GMT -5
I can't say how many articles I've seen today praising Neal without any mention of La Salle or what happened that led to his dismissal from the team. I know he was acquitted, and therefore, entitled to move on with his life, but the facts of that case are ugly and a huge part of his story. I'm really pulling for the Heat now, otherwise it'll be "Gary Neal, NBA Finals hero" forever. I can't stand the thought.
|
|
|
Post by theneumann64 on Jun 12, 2013 10:05:15 GMT -5
I can't say how many articles I've seen today praising Neal without any mention of La Salle or what happened that led to his dismissal from the team. I know he was acquitted, and therefore, entitled to move on with his life, but the facts of that case are ugly and a huge part of his story. I'm really pulling for the Heat now, otherwise it'll be "Gary Neal, NBA Finals hero" forever. I can't stand the thought. I mean, if they're just saying "Gary Neal was great last night" I don't need them to add "He was also accused of rape in 2004" but if it's a story about his "journey" from La Salle to Towson to Europe to the D League to starring in an NBA finals game, you'd like them to mention the inciting incident wasn't something to be especially proud of.
|
|