NIL: The end of college basketball as we knew it...

[theneumann64]

Dec 7, 2023 10:51:18 GMT -5 coachd said:

This is an attempt by big state schools to kill the private schools. We cannot allow that to happen. Lawsuits need to be filed against the NCAA. The student-athletes are already getting free room and board along with paid tutors to help them with their academics... if they wanna be paid they have to pay for their room and board at least. Why should we, the alums, be forced to pay for these kids retirement funds... their future employers need to pay for that.

Circus music intensifies.

[jb71]

Dec 7, 2023 10:51:18 GMT -5 coachd said:

This is an attempt by big state schools to kill the private schools. We cannot allow that to happen. Lawsuits need to be filed against the NCAA. The student-athletes are already getting free room and board along with paid tutors to help them with their academics... if they wanna be paid they have to pay for their room and board at least. Why should we, the alums, be forced to pay for these kids retirement funds... their future employers need to pay for that.

If they're becoming more like employees then maybe tuition and R&B should be taxed as income. I love sports and respect athletes but pains me to see the Scholarship value being minimized.  Let the NFL & NBA create their own minor leagues like baseball for those who value the contracts more than the scholarships.

[MisterD]

Again, would anyone here who is currently in the workforce give up their salary if they were offered a free MBA? Getting something in return is not the same as being fairly compensated and, honestly, I know you all know that but you love La Salle and you love college basketball so you twist yourselves in knots to justify the legacy process.

[GlitterBro #2]

Dec 7, 2023 12:08:03 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Again, would anyone here who is currently in the workforce give up their salary if they were offered a free MBA?

But they aren't "in the workforce". They are "in school." Earnings and benefits in the workforce are taxed. Going back to school while working and having tuition reimbursed by a company is taxed...so let's tax the benefit of tuition, room and board, and tutors and just call them employees if we are talking about it from a compensation standpoint. 

[thelasallelunatic]

Dec 7, 2023 12:08:03 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Again, would anyone here who is currently in the workforce give up their salary if they were offered a free MBA? Getting something in return is not the same as being fairly compensated and, honestly, I know you all know that but you love La Salle and you love college basketball so you twist yourselves in knots to justify the legacy process.

I get what you're saying, but do you consider La Salle players professionals?

Even more clearly, since we know the Drame twins are making 30-40K... are the Drame twins professional basketball players?

Lastly, if this proposal moves forward, what's the difference between Edy at Purdue and Mo Bamba on the Sixers? Edy is, or will be, making more than Bamba.

We are blurring this line between college and pro athlete, and guys that will never be NBA or NFL players will be making more than guys making league minimums in those leagues.

[mookie]

Dec 7, 2023 12:31:12 GMT -5 thelasallelunatic said:

Dec 7, 2023 12:08:03 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Again, would anyone here who is currently in the workforce give up their salary if they were offered a free MBA? Getting something in return is not the same as being fairly compensated and, honestly, I know you all know that but you love La Salle and you love college basketball so you twist yourselves in knots to justify the legacy process.

I get what you're saying, but do you consider La Salle players professionals?

Even more clearly, since we know the Drame twins are making 30-40K... are the Drame twins professional basketball players?

Lastly, if this proposal moves forward, what's the difference between Edy at Purdue and Mo Bamba on the Sixers? Edy is, or will be, making more than Bamba.

We are blurring this line between college and pro athlete, and guys that will never be NBA or NFL players will be making more than guys making league minimums in those leagues.

Kids are already making more in college than in pros and many instances. I’d say they’re pros at this point using text book definition of receiving financial compensation with only difference is they have opportunity to receive a degree.

It is what it is and makes what has been going on to various degrees more “official” and “out in the open”. No avoiding it once it became entertainment decades ago.

[theneumann64]

I honestly want to know what the answer is for people who don't like the new developments. (And I get it, it does make it tough to be a fan, with tons of guys transferring every year, knowing every change will benefit the Power 5 schools, and more specifically the top 30-40 programs in the country, at everyone else's expense.)

Is it just go back to the old way? Players get nothing while schools make insane profits on their backs? Video games come out featuring them but since it was "#3" instead of the guys name, their image gets used without their consent or benefit? Coaches salaries continue going up into the 8 figure range and TV contracts for college sports get bigger and bigger but the players get nothing? If you don't have a better answer than "That's how its always been" I'm sorry but you don't really have a good argument here.

[theneumann64]

Dec 7, 2023 12:43:50 GMT -5 theneumann64 said:

I honestly want to know what the answer is for people who don't like the new developments. (And I get it, it does make it tough to be a fan, with tons of guys transferring every year, knowing every change will benefit the Power 5 schools, and more specifically the top 30-40 programs in the country, at everyone else's expense.)

Is it just go back to the old way? Players get nothing while schools make insane profits on their backs? Video games come out featuring them but since it was "#3" instead of the guys name, their image gets used without their consent or benefit? Coaches salaries continue going up into the 8 figure range and TV contracts for college sports get bigger and bigger but the players get nothing? If you don't have a better answer than "That's how its always been" I'm sorry but you don't really have a good argument here.

To say nothing of the fact that it's all almost certainly going to be ruled illegal in the coming years.

[MisterD]

Dec 7, 2023 12:29:27 GMT -5 GlitterBro #2 said:

But they aren't "in the workforce". They are "in school." Earnings and benefits in the workforce are taxed. Going back to school while working and having tuition reimbursed by a company is taxed...so let's tax the benefit of tuition, room and board, and tutors and just call them employees if we are talking about it from a compensation standpoint. 

Ignoring how you'd tax athletic scholarships and not academic scholarships, what's the real goal with this PoV? To simply ensure kids can't get paid? To save mid-major basketball?

Dec 7, 2023 12:31:12 GMT -5 thelasallelunatic said:

I get what you're saying, but do you consider La Salle players professionals?

I think the answer, in a literal sense, would probably be "some of them", right?

Dec 7, 2023 12:31:12 GMT -5 thelasallelunatic said:

Even more clearly, since we know the Drame twins are making 30-40K... are the Drame twins professional basketball players?

Yes, in the sense they are compensated for being a part of a revenue generating program for their university.

Dec 7, 2023 12:31:12 GMT -5 thelasallelunatic said:

Lastly, if this proposal moves forward, what's the difference between Edy at Purdue and Mo Bamba on the Sixers? Edy is, or will be, making more than Bamba.

Edy is making more because Edy is far more valuable to Purdue than Bamba is to the Sixers. That seems like progress to me.

[MisterD]

Again, rewinding a lot of steps, does anyone take issue with 18 year olds being paid to do stuff, or is it really just "this might fuck La Salle so I oppose it"?

[MisterD]

Or maybe asked a different way, would you have enjoyed the SW Philly Floater less if you knew Garland was making some money? Like does a player's lack of cash enhance anything for anyone other than the highly paid coaches and athletic dept budgets?

[theneumann64]

Dec 7, 2023 12:53:41 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Again, rewinding a lot of steps, does anyone take issue with 18 year olds being paid to do stuff, or is it really just "this might fuck La Salle so I oppose it"?

I think it's both. I get the second one, although I don't agree with taking that stance. But the first one has been around a looooong time. "If someone else is getting something that must been its taking something away from me" is a pretty core belief to a lot of people.

[MisterD]

The justification for a guy like Jay Wright getting paid $9MM per year (by a university whose stated goal is education, not dunk shots) is that he's a massive source of direct and indirect revenue. It doesn't stop there because Jay Wright wins exactly zero games if he's out there dribbling the ball.

[jb71]

Dec 7, 2023 12:43:50 GMT -5 theneumann64 said:

I honestly want to know what the answer is for people who don't like the new developments. (And I get it, it does make it tough to be a fan, with tons of guys transferring every year, knowing every change will benefit the Power 5 schools, and more specifically the top 30-40 programs in the country, at everyone else's expense.)

Is it just go back to the old way? Players get nothing while schools make insane profits on their backs? Video games come out featuring them but since it was "#3" instead of the guys name, their image gets used without their consent or benefit? Coaches salaries continue going up into the 8 figure range and TV contracts for college sports get bigger and bigger but the players get nothing? If you don't have a better answer than "That's how its always been" I'm sorry but you don't really have a good argument here.

For me the answer is to ensure this changing environment includes the good and the bad for the newly paid players.  The IRS should weigh in on the tax angles including whether they are employees or perhaps Self employed since they are free to move from.school to school. That makes them liable for Self employment taxes in addition to federal, State and.lical taxes.

[GlitterBro #2]

Dec 7, 2023 12:52:48 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Dec 7, 2023 12:29:27 GMT -5 GlitterBro #2 said:

But they aren't "in the workforce". They are "in school." Earnings and benefits in the workforce are taxed. Going back to school while working and having tuition reimbursed by a company is taxed...so let's tax the benefit of tuition, room and board, and tutors and just call them employees if we are talking about it from a compensation standpoint. 

Ignoring how you'd tax athletic scholarships and not academic scholarships, what's the real goal with this PoV? To simply ensure kids can't get paid? To save mid-major basketball?

This is actually your PoV, so I'd ask you your goal. You used statements about the "workforce" and "being fairly compensated." Those are terms used to describe employer-employee relationships, so let's just call that what it is. The model now conflates "education" and "working for compensation". Working for compensation should be taxed (and if in Philly...should be subject to city wage tax). 

Academic scholarships are taxed for what it covered beyond tuition (room and board for example). 

I have no problem with kids getting paid.  Lots of kids get paid working jobs while going school. Since you used the term "fairly compensated", who terms what is fair? Should it be performance based? If a kid gets injured, does his compensation drop because he can't play? Is he then entitled to workers compensation - an employee benefit? COBRA coverage if he is dropped from the team?

[theneumann64]

Realistically, there's no way to reconcile modern college athletics with any logical framework. It's not amateurism, and hasn't been for at least 2 generations. Not when everyone but the players is getting rich off of it. But any attempt to move it towards professionalism isn't going to fit either. Not within the confines of an institution of Higher Education. It'll never be a great fit.

I don't know what the answers are, mostly because I don't think there really are any that aren't trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

[mookie]

Dec 7, 2023 14:17:32 GMT -5 GlitterBro #2 said:

Dec 7, 2023 12:52:48 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Ignoring how you'd tax athletic scholarships and not academic scholarships, what's the real goal with this PoV? To simply ensure kids can't get paid? To save mid-major basketball?

Since you used the term "fairly compensated", who terms what is fair?

This is a never ending, nobody will ever be happy discussion. The question on “fair compensation” hasn’t even been addressed in the “traditional” workforce.

And no, I’m not saying the solution is to do nothing. Just pointing out how complex it is and how there will always be a population feeling they deserve more.

But seriously call it for what it is, they are both STUDENTS and PROFESSIONALS. They are not exclusive of each other. We can’t go back and quite frankly, we shouldn’t. I was against paying athletes and honestly of the mindset that a degree and free room and board WAS their compensation. But I was wrong…

[GlitterBro #2]

And if we call them employees, what kind of visas do the international students need to obtain? Student visas are much different than worker visas and come with different stipulations. For example, a worker visa requires a company (in this case the University) to justify why they need a non US citizen in the role. For an international player riding the pine or sitting out a year to redshirt, is that really justifiable?

It's great that the kids can get paid, but the unintended consequences are going to make lots of lawyers rich navigating this upcoming legal mess.

[gymrat67]

( February 23, 2024 ) Federal judge grants injunction in Tennessee lawsuit against the NCAA which freezes NIL rules.

The preliminary injunction granted in the Eastern Tennessee District by Judge Clifton Corker found that the NCAA's NIL rules caused irreparable damage to athletes. The decision applies until the underlying court case plays out, and the ruling covers the entire Country, preventing the NCAA from enforcing its NIL rules against any school and giving student-athletes latitude on signing deals.

" The decision could have a seismic impact on college sports, as the NCAA's rules banning NIL recruiting inducements are frozen for more than 523,000 athletes at 1,088 institutions. "

www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2024/02/23/ncaa-nil-rules-tennessee-lawsuit-judge-injunction/72716725007/