NIL: The end of college basketball as we knew it...

[big5explorer]

Many of us could see it coming, and here it is -- a future subdivision of schools based on ability to pay athletes. There is no way La Salle, and many smaller or private schools, can finance this.

We're about to become a minor league farm schools for the bigger schools. Seems inevitable to soon see 2 separate NCAA basketball tournaments for separate champions every year. Some people wanted to open the pandora's box of paying college athletes, and this is where it is taking us:

sports.yahoo.com/ncaa-proposing-new-college-athletics-subdivision-rooted-in-direct-athlete-compensation-145051537.html


"Entry into the subdivision requires a school to invest, at minimum, $30,000 per year per athlete into what is termed an “enhanced educational trust fund” for at least half of a school’s countable athletes. Schools would determine when athletes receive the amount, which, for four-year athletes, will total at least $120,000. Schools must continue to abide by the framework of Title IX, assuring that 50 percent of the investment be directed toward women athletes."

"......There is no cap on the amount of funds that a program can provide an athlete."

[GlitterBro #2]

We saw this coming with the NIL and transfer portal. This will blow up mid-major conferences. La Salle can't pay half our athletes $30K per year. That will cost La Salle $3M - $4M annually.

This other bit is concerning:

Schools in the new subdivision could create their own rules separate from the rest of D-I, and those rules would allow them the ability to address policies such as scholarship limits and roster size as well as transfers and NIL.

theathletic.com/5114092/2023/12/05/ncaa-subdivision-athlete-compensation-charlie-baker/

[JoeFedorowicz]

Non-paywalled.

www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/39047353/ncaa-proposes-rule-let-schools-athletes-enter-nil-deals

[explorer88]

The Yahoo article states it is $30,000 per athlete but others are saying it is $30,000 in half the athletes.

[GlitterBro #2]

Dec 5, 2023 12:19:51 GMT -5 explorer88 said:

The Yahoo article states it is $30,000 per athlete but others are saying it is $30,000 in half the athletes.

30k for at least half the athletes. I think La Salle has about 250 athletes across all sports, so committing to paying half of them (125) at least $30K per year is an annual cost of $3.75M

[MisterD]

Dec 5, 2023 11:34:11 GMT -5 big5explorer said:

We're about to become a minor league farm schools for the bigger schools.

So embrace this ahead of the curve. Rather than "look at these kids we sent overseas", turn it into "look at these kids we turned into P5 players". US pro sports are probably unique in their structure where any team can be a theoretical contender if you look at a five year out window. That won't be the case for us in the future, but it also wasn't the case for us in the past. We were never winning another NCAA title, the best we can hope for is winning a conference and playing in a tournament. Just become the best version of what a small, private high-mid-major can be rather than bemoaning the sport finally has some equity for the kids who make it run.

[explorer88]

Dec 5, 2023 12:22:43 GMT -5 GlitterBro #2 said:

Dec 5, 2023 12:19:51 GMT -5 explorer88 said:

The Yahoo article states it is $30,000 per athlete but others are saying it is $30,000 in half the athletes.

30k for at least half the athletes. I think La Salle has about 250 athletes across all sports, so committing to paying half of them (125) at least $30K per year is an annual cost of $3.75M

How many sports need be D-1? I am not sure the rule of how many sports need to be D-1 to stay in D-1 basketball.

[big5explorer]

Dec 5, 2023 12:23:16 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Dec 5, 2023 11:34:11 GMT -5 big5explorer said:

We're about to become a minor league farm schools for the bigger schools.

So embrace this ahead of the curve..... Just become the best version of what a small, private high-mid-major can be rather than bemoaning the sport finally has some equity for the kids who make it run.

I'm confused about the use of the word "equity" here. I fail to see "equity."

These kids aren't going to all be paid the same. QB's, and likely the starting 5 basketball players, at some of these schools with deep pockets will be paid 6 or 7 figures a year soon.

And under this new proposed format only half the of athletes are required to be paid 30k per year. What about the other half of the athletes at the school?

Why do female soccer players "need" to be paid 30k a year if they aren't generating any revenue for the school at all? Or why just the soccer players and not the tennis team?

Or, why just athletes for that matter? How about some "equity" for the students doing research and bringing in thousands or millions in grant money for the school? There are other students, not just athletes, generating revenue for the school, right? How about the marching band members who play the music everyone is listening to at the Penn State tailgates? How about a few bucks for the Michigan theater major who has the lead in the show that sells out their theater for a few weekends in a row?

[MisterD]

I'm not sure I can answer every single question there without getting repetitive, but I'll hit a few and you can tell me if I missed a key one ...

Dec 5, 2023 13:02:19 GMT -5 big5explorer said:

These kids aren't going to all be paid the same.

Sure, and that's fine. I would have to work really hard to make an argument that Garvin Hunt and Ramon Galloway should have received the same amount for the 2012-13 season despite both being basketball players on the same team.

Dec 5, 2023 13:02:19 GMT -5 big5explorer said:

QB's, and likely the starting 5 basketball players, at some of these schools with deep pockets will be paid 6 or 7 figures a year soon.

I find this objectively great and proof that these kids have always been generating massive revenues they saw no part of. If shitty coaches can make seven figures, why shouldn't star players?

Dec 5, 2023 13:02:19 GMT -5 big5explorer said:

Or, why just athletes for that matter? How about some "equity" for the students doing research and bringing in thousands or millions in grant money for the school? There are other students, not just athletes, generating revenue for the school, right? How about the marching band members who play the music everyone is listening to at the Penn State tailgates? How about a few bucks for the Michigan theater major who has the lead in the show that sells out their theater for a few weekends in a row?

You're not going to catch me arguing against any of these.

[MisterD]

To the equity question, since that led it off, there have always been three parties involved (university, coaches/admins, players) and its been accepted that two of those were allowed to profit. No one ever said assistant coaches should get as many post-grad credits as they want or free college for family and that's it for comp, right?

[theneumann64]

Look, I'm sure this will somehow end up benefiting Power schools financially and hurting other schools because that's the end result of every major NCAA initiative. But that's not a good enough reason to argue the prior status quo of everyone else making money off of these athletes except the athletes themselves. If that's the only way the system can be preserved, then its not a system that deserves to be saved.

And when you invoke the "well if we stop screwing these people, what's next? We stop screwing all the other people that usually get screwed?" is where the argument really loses me. If the school play is generating massive revenue for the school, then you're damned right the people acting and working on it should be paid.

[MisterD]

There's a tendency for these to devolve into "well if this kid who is the best player on a team that generates 8 figure revenue for the university gets paid, they why not _______" when the question answers itself. Like I'd love it if everyone could life comfortably enough doing what they love, but that's not the end-game here. Its saying "if we live in a wildly capitalistic society, why are these kids the carveout who can't benefit". Modest gains are still gains, right?

[mookie]

Dec 5, 2023 13:02:19 GMT -5 big5explorer said:

Dec 5, 2023 12:23:16 GMT -5 MisterD said:

So embrace this ahead of the curve..... Just become the best version of what a small, private high-mid-major can be rather than bemoaning the sport finally has some equity for the kids who make it run.

I'm confused about the use of the word "equity" here. I fail to see "equity."

These kids aren't going to all be paid the same. QB's, and likely the starting 5 basketball players, at some of these schools with deep pockets will be paid 6 or 7 figures a year soon.

A Coach recently said a QB in the portal goes for 1-1.5M so there’s that…

[GlitterBro #2]

Dec 5, 2023 12:23:16 GMT -5 MisterD said:

We were never winning another NCAA title, the best we can hope for is winning a conference and playing in a tournament. 

But that's what's in jeopardy right now. For us on our Sweet 16 run, or the FAUs or FDUs of the world in recent years to be in there knocking off the P5 schools. That's the joy of college sports and the tournament. Being in the band in 1992 when we were a 13 seed taking on Seton Hall in Greensboro and watching the crowd get behind us as an underdog...that's the stuff that still exists today.

If they drop to a football-like structure where we are relegated to only playing non-power conferences in the post-season, I think it makes the post-season a heck of a lot less interesting for fans. Something that's good, and fun, and exciting because you get to see teams you've never heard of make improbable runs and upset power teams will be gone. 

That sucks. And I get that this is a "stay off my lawn" moment or "old man yells at cloud", and things move forward, but this feels like it will be less enjoyable.  

[big5explorer]

Dec 5, 2023 14:32:09 GMT -5 MisterD said:

There's a tendency for these to devolve into "well if this kid who is the best player on a team that generates 8 figure revenue for the university gets paid, they why not _______" when the question answers itself. Like I'd love it if everyone could life comfortably enough doing what they love, but that's not the end-game here. Its saying "if we live in a wildly capitalistic society, why are these kids the carveout who can't benefit". Modest gains are still gains, right?

I'm not opposed to capitalism, and kids making money while in school, whether it's a job at the bookstore, or at The Gap. But these college athletes are about to be paid like professional athletes, while getting a college degree on top of that. College sports are about to become like the soccer clubs of Europe, with tiers of quality based mostly on the financial resources of those clubs. It's hard to imagine La Salle being able to compete financially on any level in this format.

[big5explorer]

Dec 5, 2023 15:33:47 GMT -5 mookie said:

Dec 5, 2023 13:02:19 GMT -5 big5explorer said:

I

A Coach recently said a QB in the portal goes for 1-1.5M so there’s that…

Exactly. And this is just the beginning.

[MisterD]

To those last two points ...

1. $1.5MM is cheap for a starting QB.

2. The "their degree is payment enough" argument is nonsense and no one here is taking a job where the payment is knowledge gained. I got a degree in accounting to eventually have a career in accounting. If you want your $1.5MM QB to accept his < $100K per year degree as payment, you better not be taking up all of his time with practice, film, treatment, games, travel, etc and instead let him focus on his school work.

[mookie]

Dec 5, 2023 16:41:30 GMT -5 big5explorer said:

Dec 5, 2023 14:32:09 GMT -5 MisterD said:

There's a tendency for these to devolve into "well if this kid who is the best player on a team that generates 8 figure revenue for the university gets paid, they why not _______" when the question answers itself. Like I'd love it if everyone could life comfortably enough doing what they love, but that's not the end-game here. Its saying "if we live in a wildly capitalistic society, why are these kids the carveout who can't benefit". Modest gains are still gains, right?

I'm not opposed to capitalism, and kids making money while in school, whether it's a job at the bookstore, or at The Gap. But these college athletes are about to be paid like professional athletes, while getting a college degree on top of that. College sports are about to become like the soccer clubs of Europe, with tiers of quality based mostly on the financial resources of those clubs. It's hard to imagine La Salle being able to compete financially on any level in this format.

Maybe the doormats of those conferences get relegated like in soccer opening the door for another program or two

[thelasallelunatic]

Everyone got what they were truly worth when it was duffle bags and brief cases full of cash. You may like the current system, you may hate it, and you may dislike that I'm brining up a dark side of a culture that lasted 100 years... but envelopes of cash and boosters giving bogus jobs to kids at local car lots worked, and it didn't grenade the entire collegiate athletic apple cart.

[coqui900]

I find it interesting that the people I know in this world most aghast at NIL or college players getting paid for their efforts are the ones who tout the benefits of a free market society the most.

[MisterD]

Capitalism isn’t supposed to be for everyone. That’s not how it works.

[calidelphia]

Capitalism isn’t supposed to conflate sports with schools as a tool to fund education at the students cost. But schools needed to pay teachers or build stadiums and getting donors was always easier by filling bigger stadiums unless you’re a real ivy. Who pays for that marketing? Teachers, students.

Maybe I’m wrong, I don’t have numbers on earnings, but it’s marketing. It’s sports. It’s business. But it has nothing to do with education. This should mark the end of college sports as we know it and lead to paid 18-22 leagues.

I love La Salle and what I learned and experienced there, but I didn’t go because I was hyped about billy hahn’s payday and a move to the a10. Feel free to rip my opinion with numbers or facts I’m leaving out, but from my basic vantage point, I just don’t see how higher education and massive money athletics can ethically be combined at this clip.

Is the argument that athletics gets more high school graduates to seek higher education? Is it that it makes more money for the schools for those that are successful? I’ve always loved college sports and played them, but was cynical about big money going towards coaches and facilities, and now players at blue blood types and ncaa football programs. I see why jay wright got out when he did.

[GlitterBro #2]

This all brings to mind some words from Lawrence and Lee’s, “Inherit the Wind,” written about the Scopes “Monkey Trial.”

“Progress has never been a bargain. You have to pay for it. Sometimes I think there's a man who sits behind a counter and says, ‘All right, you can have a telephone, but you lose privacy and the charm of distance. Madam, you may vote but at a price: you lose the right to retreat behind the powder puff or your petticoat. Mister, you may conquer the air, but the birds will lose their wonder and the clouds will smell of gasoline."

The price we pay for this "progress" is the end of the college sports system we've grown up with and grown to love. The end of the NCAA tournament where a David can fell a Goliath. The end of mid major relevance.

[thelasallelunatic]

It isn't just going to be the end of the mid major. Only something like 12% of athletic departments make a profit across the country. For you communication majors, that means 88% of colleges are operating their athletic departments at a loss.

The proposed model cannot financially work with only 40 men's basketball teams or 15 football teams.

[las71]

While it appears that the sky is falling here,there may be a silver lining. Assuming that as many as 80 DI basketball programs can pay, what happens to the approximately 240 give or take schools that remain. The networks and streaming services still need programming and will do everything in their power to promote the remaining schools. They'll want a post season tournament to telecast and they will promote it heavily. Maybe the remaining schools will set up conferences that are regional and return to games against natural rivals. As Charles Barkley states there are a lot of good basketball players out there. These kids still need places to play. If the argument is that TV money will be less, so will expenses as teams move to regional conferences. It's time for schools that understand that they will be on the outside of the new NCAA to start preparing for what's next. How many of us would be thrilled to win the NIT. There will be a post season equivalent to what the NIT was just a few years ago, TV money, gambling and excitement. The planning needs to begin now!

[giveansk1]

These proposals are going to keep coming out as the NCAA tries to avoid sharing in the broadcast revenues. It is reasonable to assume athletes are going to get a piece of that though in the next 2-3 years. It is probably best for La Salle that Power 2 college football breaks off from the rest of the NCAA.

Everyone knows the NCAA tournament is the money maker in college basketball so while it will be changed, La Salle is not going to be excluded even if it ends up in a one bid league (which it kinda already is).

The Olympic sports are going to continue to go away. This is a shame but necessary, particularly if Title IX continues to exist and causes a financial burden.

[theneumann64]

This was an interesting article examining this from the standpoint of a legal strategy by the NCAA
www.sportico.com/law/analysis/2023/ncaa-audibles-amateurism-playbook-1234751784/

[thelasallelunatic]

Dec 6, 2023 8:36:17 GMT -5 giveansk1 said:

These proposals are going to keep coming out as the NCAA tries to avoid sharing in the broadcast revenues. It is reasonable to assume athletes are going to get a piece of that though in the next 2-3 years. It is probably best for La Salle that Power 2 college football breaks off from the rest of the NCAA.

Everyone knows the NCAA tournament is the money maker in college basketball so while it will be changed, La Salle is not going to be excluded even if it ends up in a one bid league (which it kinda already is).

The Olympic sports are going to continue to go away. This is a shame but necessary, particularly if Title IX continues to exist and causes a financial burden.

Title IX is something that nobody will touch, but it needs to be re-worked, or else Olympic sports are going to exist at like 25 schools.

[coqui900]

Dec 5, 2023 15:33:47 GMT -5 mookie said:

Dec 5, 2023 13:02:19 GMT -5 big5explorer said:

I'm confused about the use of the word "equity" here. I fail to see "equity."

These kids aren't going to all be paid the same. QB's, and likely the starting 5 basketball players, at some of these schools with deep pockets will be paid 6 or 7 figures a year soon.

A Coach recently said a QB in the portal goes for 1-1.5M so there’s that…

This coach also probably stands to make $35 million per his buyout agreement after the extension he signed for a 6-4 season and New Mexico Bowl victory.

[coachd]

This is an attempt by big state schools to kill the private schools. We cannot allow that to happen. Lawsuits need to be filed against the NCAA. The student-athletes are already getting free room and board along with paid tutors to help them with their academics... if they wanna be paid they have to pay for their room and board at least. Why should we, the alums, be forced to pay for these kids retirement funds... their future employers need to pay for that.