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Post by big5explorer on Dec 16, 2021 17:45:11 GMT -5
There’s an argument for that second piece. My opinion is muddied because I was still competing when Caster Semenya was just becoming known. And my half mile time is faster than hers, the women’s world record. And her situation is different because she didn’t choose to be who she is, but for many trans people, the choice is a life of misery or not misery. I do understand the problem here. Perhaps there should be an asterisk next to the record. I personally wouldn’t have a problem with that, but I’m not a trans athlete. If you told Lia: Despite you being uncomfortable living as a man, we’re going make you do that if you want to continue doing your sport. That seems downright mean. Despite what you might think, the liberal position here is difficult for me because I was an athlete. Unfair advantages in sport do harm others. But where do you draw the line between allowing someone to be happy vs the (very uncommon) situation where the person in question dominates her sport now. I’m not smart enough to have a good answer. Simply because you might place an asterisk next to a champion, or a record-holder, doesn't make it all fair. What about a guy who decides to race as a woman and get's third place? You going to put an asterisk on the bronze medal? How about a 6'10" center who decides he wants to play for the women's college basketball team, and they go 12-6 and take a playoff spot from a truly all-women's team? A transvestite now identifying as a man doesn't have to necessarily dominate or be a champion to make the competition unleveled. Biologically, gender distinction (and I do mean XX and XY chromosome carriers) are as biologically pertinent in competition as age or weight. Or maybe we should let the 200 pound wrestler compete in the 145 pound weight class because he doesn't like being 200 pounds. Perhaps the serious legal solution is to have the NCAAXY and NCAAXX college basketball tournaments. |
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Post by big5explorer on Dec 16, 2021 18:05:10 GMT -5
And the last paragraph isn't garbage. It's just a bit further down this very slippery slope. If a 35year old "feels" older, because they have rheumatoid arthritis, and says they identify as a 55 year old because thats really how they feel most days, then why shouldn't they compete on the Senior golf tour, or in the Master classification of the marathon? I'm not going to debate you on the other stuff because we will get into gender vs sex. You are correct regarding the biological differences between the sexes, but it is spectrum...not binary. Biological sex is binary, and not a spectrum. Your birth certificate is proof of this. |
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Dec 16, 2021 18:15:01 GMT -5
I'm not interacting with you regarding any of this. I find your arguments two posts above to be foolish and your one above here to be, quite frankly, wrong. |
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Post by big5explorer on Dec 16, 2021 19:18:45 GMT -5
I'm not interacting with you regarding any of this. I find your arguments two posts above to be foolish and your one above here to be, quite frankly, wrong. So you are interacting with me by calling my position foolish and then attaching an article. Is that on the spectrum between interacting and not interacting? Those graphs and charts in the article are grossly misleading. Scientific gobbledygook. Presented as such by the author's intention, or more likely due to the author's lack of scientific knowledge. The charts are presented as if true biological males and true biological females are a small percentage of the genders at the very ends of some spectrum, and are given equal space on the chart as those rare individuals with Turners or Kleinfelter's. Turners, for example, occurs in 1 in 2500 females. And phenotypically, these patients still generally present as female and are still considered female for a number of reasons that I am happy to get into if you would like to discuss medicine, biology and genetics. Medically, biologically, iand phenotypically individuals with Turners are female. Individuals with Kleinfelters are male. What do you find foolish about the fact there are generally two sexes with most species, especially mammals, and that there are distinct physical differences between the sexes within many, if not most, species of animals? |
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Dec 16, 2021 20:58:05 GMT -5
Only in Explorertown does an English major argue science with an actual practicing physician who peer reviews scientific articles that appear in major medical journals.
I'm not sure why this is muddled and not clear. If Cliff Moore decided to play on a woman's team in 2 years, Cliff would be an all American.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Dec 16, 2021 21:07:59 GMT -5
Only in Explorertown does an English major argue science with an actual practicing physician who peer reviews scientific articles that appear in major medical journals. I was a terrible English major too. Bad job by me. Can we agree at least that this isn't some sinister plot by Lia Thomas to falsely claim to be a woman and then break all the records? Don't think Cliff Moore is interested in that. |
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Dec 16, 2021 22:57:20 GMT -5
Can we agree at least that this isn't some sinister plot by Lia Thomas to falsely claim to be a woman and then break all the records? Don't think Cliff Moore is interested in that. I don't think it was a sinister plot. Never said that. But the reality is..if that individual is on the medal stand and erased prior records..it just doesn't seem valid based on their bodies being legitimately different. Penn has a specific case here to deal with...and it is precedent setting. It is creeping into high schools. CT state championship in track in 2018 has two transgender athletes take first and second in the 200. Imagine being the girl who finished 3rd? Overall, they won 15 individual state championship titles from 2017 to 2019 and set state records. That's taking medals and opportunities away from other biological women. It's actually suppressing women's sports, not enhancing it. |
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Dec 17, 2021 6:11:10 GMT -5
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Post by victoriouslasalle on Dec 17, 2021 7:57:52 GMT -5
For me it is pretty clear that there's a biological advantage for the male to female trans in athletics which has been well explained here. What complicates this issue for me is the particularly tough times trans folks can go through in this world we live in. I must confess a bias here. I am inclined to want to see them get some breaks but realize it might be unreasonable here. Over the years I have seen a fair amount of misery up close that they are subject to. And, for their sake, I would like to see a more accepting and less hateful world responding to the differences these folks can present. A small subset of my work over the years has been with folks dealing with gender identity issues. For example, last year I started to work with a 19 year old female to male trans. His history included two suicide attempts during adolescence. His parents kicked him out of the home at 15 wanting no parts of him (she would have been OK). I want to add here, it was heartening for me to learn that the Catholic High School that he attended offered a great deal of support during very tough times and some of the teachers from there continue to serve like family to him in support of his transition. His transition to adulthood has been some tough stuff.
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Post by las71 on Dec 17, 2021 8:23:43 GMT -5
For far too many years issues like these remained family secrets and what should have been accepted as difference was treated with shame. The medical and legal ethics surrounding this are complex and really just beginning to be addressed. Penn elected to allow this person to swim on the women's team and comments on this board show the intense feelings surrounding that decision. I'm sure they didn't make this decision lightly and hopefully as more institutions face these issues, policies will be adopted that set appropriate standards.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Dec 17, 2021 8:31:30 GMT -5
Good article, Joe. Like I said above...this is far more complicated for Penn's Athletic Department to manage than sitting for the anthem. That doesn't change the level of competition amongst the athletes. This has broader implications that affect women's sports, fairness, opportunities for athletes, etc. I'm sure Penn's Sports Information Department is fielding more media inquiries than they ever have, and there's no playbook for this . Interestingly, several parents of swimmer on the team penned a letter to the NCAA demanding rule changes so the individual cannot compete. I'm guessing whether NCAA will sit on this like they do everything. This has to be difficult for the team unity. swimswam.com/what-are-the-boundaries-penn-parents-demand-ncaa-change-transgender-rules/ |
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Dec 17, 2021 8:36:52 GMT -5
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Post by gymrat67 on Dec 17, 2021 10:12:57 GMT -5
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Jan 11, 2022 15:38:52 GMT -5
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 14, 2022 8:59:50 GMT -5
www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/exclusive-interview-with-penn-swimmer-the-ncaa-just-does-not-care-about-us-at-all“It just seems like if you say anything, everyone is just going to attack you and call you transphobic, and it’s not even true,” she said. “We just want to have what we were promised by joining the swim team, which is fair competition and equal opportunities. It’s been really frustrating because we all agree, and I have yet to meet anyone or talk to anyone who thinks what is going on is OK. But yet somehow, these are the rules and allowed.”
Penn champions itself as a beacon of female empowerment and equality. The university routinely mentions women “shattering the glass ceiling.” Yet, in the case of the Penn female swimmers, the Ivy League university is forcing them to live under one.
“It’s so backwards because they are legitimately discriminating against women,” she said.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Jan 20, 2022 8:57:21 GMT -5
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 20, 2022 11:06:48 GMT -5
NCAA passing the buck...as usual |
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Jan 20, 2022 12:20:40 GMT -5
Yeah I found it to be a really weird decision.
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