Junior to Senior Year, what is going on?

[stlexplorer]

I've thought this for a while and this year is even more apparent with Wright and Zack. How Wright who just a couple seasons ago was taking it to teams in the NCAA tournament and we yearn for anything close to that again is beyond me. For a program like La Salle, where one of our big advantages should be guys staying for 4 years and improving, it sure feels like when we expect the big improvement from Junior to Senior year we are left disappointed. I threw some stats together, for guys under G, to look if my thoughts are true or not and here's what I found:

Mike St. John:
- 06/07 - 26.7min, 5.0pts, 5.7reb, 37%FG
- 05/06 - 26.0min, 5.8pts, 6.1reb, 47%FG

Paul Johnson:
- 08/09 - 25.3min, 4.4pts, 4.1reb, 40%FG
- 07/08 - 24.7min, 6.7pts, 5.0reb, 45%FG

Jerrell Williams:
- 09/10 - 29.0min, 10.1pts, 7.1reb, 48%FG
- 08/09 - 19.3min, 6.4pts, 4.2reb, 39%FG

Yves Mekongo Mbala:
- 09/10 - 35.6min, 11.0pts, 5.5reb, 38%FG
- 08/09 - 29.9min, 10.4pts, 6.0reb, 45%FG

Rodney Green:
- 09/10 - 37.1min, 18.5pts, 5.1reb, 41%FG
- 08/09 - 35.3min, 17.8pts, 5.0reb, 48%FG

Kimmani Barrett:
- 09/10 - 35.1min, 13.4pts, 3.7reb, 46%FG
- 08/09 - 31.9min, 11.8pts, 5.0reb, 44%FG

Sam Mills:
- 13/14 - 31.3min, 7.6pts, 2.5reb, 39%FG
- 12/13 - 33.6min, 8.0pts, 2.6reb, 41&FG

Tyreek Duren:
- 13/14 - 36.2min, 15.2pts, 3.5ast, 42%FG
- 12/13 - 34.5min, 14.2pts, 3.3ast, 46%FG

Steve Zack:
- 14/15 - 29.1min, 7.9pts, 8.4reb, 41%FG (10 games)
- 13/14 - 30.3min, 8.8pts, 9.5reb, 48%FG

Jerrell Wright:
- 14/15 - 24.3min, 11.8pts, 7.1reb, 47%FG (10 games)
- 13/14 - 25.4min, 13.3pts, 6.6reb, 58%FG

DJ Peterson:
- 14/15 - 28.8min, 3.0pts, 3.7reb, 38%FG, 21%3ptFG (10 games)
- 13/14 - 23.5min, 4.4pts, 2.9reb, 37%FG, 28%3ptFG

Sorry for all these stats but I'm beyond depressed having done this exercise. In the players that there was an improvement it's so minor it's really not a big deal. My love for G is well known but this is a coaching and development issue and it's gonna fall on the guys wearing suits on the bench.

[stlexplorer]

I tried to stay away from transfers like Ramon, Garland, Pettis as there's a lot of factors going on. These are for guys we had the whole time to develop.

[23won]

NPOA.

The aggregate ppg data is not that bad for many players, but what is really telling is that the FG % has gone down pretty much across the board and pretty severely for most.

This proves what I and many have said on other threads that

1) no offensive scheme
2) terrible shot selection
3) G's short leash for newcomers and do as you want approach for vets

makes for a bad strategy.

When I have more time, I'll try to link my post from a few months ago re the above, especially 3.

Team balance = team unity.

G runs an unbalanced ship, SEAL training notwithstanding.

[JoeFedorowicz]

They are playing for their futures, and not many non-pros have the ability to turn it up and most of the time it goes the other way.

Steve Zack was getting NBA sniffs two years ago.
Jerrell Wright is playing for Europe.

[calidelphia]

I am really hoping that those two will find some of that edge in A10 competition. They need that chip back on their shoulder. I also think they are hindered by the scheme a bit. G's game plan calls for a big in the post and top of the key to set screens.

As far as the numbers, it seems like while not huge improvements the only losses are from this years seniors, which I attribute to the toughest schedule G has put together. Also the early years. St. John who G didn't recruit and Paul Johnson in a year when the keys were handed to Rodney Green and a Junior dominated team.

That said, there is some serious issues with the development and field goal % of Wright and Zack this year, something I had expected a reasonable improvement due to improvements in size, fitness and another year to focus on putting the ball into the round metal thing when you are very close to it.

DJ I can't explain. He is really not a shooter or driver in any way at all, meanwhile we know the skills are there. I can only equate him to an Alex Smith game manager type in football. He has hit a senior shooting slump like Sam last year and maybe a game off will be good.

What I do know is that G's philosophy is to let kids develop their own shot and that once they get to college the mechanics are largely set. This worked for some players but I think some players need to continually improve and some players can really develop that shot. Blake Griffin comes to mind, his form is actually surprisingly nice now where as he was on par with shaq in the past.

[mookie]

Dec 17, 2014 20:10:24 GMT -5 calidelphia said:

I am really hoping that those two will find some of that edge in A10 competition. They need that chip back on their shoulder. I also think they are hindered by the scheme a bit. G's game plan calls for a big in the post and top of the key to set screens.

As far as the numbers, it seems like while not huge improvements the only losses are from this years seniors, which I attribute to the toughest schedule G has put together. Also the early years. St. John who G didn't recruit and Paul Johnson in a year when the keys were handed to Rodney Green and a Junior dominated team.

That said, there is some serious issues with the development and field goal % of Wright and Zack this year, something I had expected a reasonable improvement due to improvements in size, fitness and another year to focus on putting the ball into the round metal thing when you are very close to it.

DJ I can't explain. He is really not a shooter or driver in any way at all, meanwhile we know the skills are there. I can only equate him to an Alex Smith game manager type in football. He has hit a senior shooting slump like Sam last year and maybe a game off will be good.

What I do know is that G's philosophy is to let kids develop their own shot and that once they get to college the mechanics are largely set. This worked for some players but I think some players need to continually improve and some players can really develop that shot. Blake Griffin comes to mind, his form is actually surprisingly nice now where as he was on par with shaq in the past.

Paul Johnson and those other players were in different situations. Team was going through a bunch of things at the same time including the team being in transition and injuries.

To think there would be improvements in wright's shooting is kind of crazy since he was already shooting at a higher percentage. Being stronger wouldn't make much of a difference. If anything, his shooting would decrease since it was already high. Zach in would've expected to decrease only because I would've hoped he would've added a midrange jumper that extended to the foul line. While the percentage would've gone down his effectiveness would've gone up theoretically because it would space the floor more for wright and the guards. Completely disagree with you in DJ hitting a shooting slump...hes shooting in line with the past years. That's not a slump, that's who he is...feel free to disagree but the numbers don't lie.

G doesn't seem to really develop the players outside of some of the bigs. The guards largely improve on their own and due to increased volume. That's really it...

[MisterD]

Its what Joe said and its entirely reasonable. Either tailoring their game to get noticed or getting a little crushed under the pressure, basically how I would have felt if there were a bunch of accounting firm partners in class watching me give stupid presentations.

[coachd]

Yeah but Lionel Simmons had a drop off also from junior to senior year. As a senior you have more pressure to produce... sometimes that and the fact that you are the focus of other teams... they are not going to guard an unknown freshman nearly as close as a known player.

[mookie]

Dec 18, 2014 11:04:25 GMT -5 coachd said:

Yeah but Lionel Simmons had a drop off also from junior to senior year. As a senior you have more pressure to produce... sometimes that and the fact that you are the focus of other teams... they are not going to guard an unknown freshman nearly as close as a known player.

Not an excuse

[MisterD]

Its not an excuse, its an explanation. A non-elite player being focused on or game-planned on will see a dip in production. That's just kind of logical, isn't it? Atleast more logical than "be better because we need you to be better".

[talkinbball]

To even mention the L Train in the same context/analysis as that list should be a cause for some type of board sanction.

[mookie]

Dec 18, 2014 13:52:51 GMT -5 talkinbball said:

To even mention the L Train in the same context/analysis as that list should be a cause for some type of board sanction.

So true! Lol

[milkoliverwurst]

Lionel Simmons won the NCAA player of the year in his senior season. That's an awful comparison.

[milkoliverwurst]

But I do understand your point.