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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Apr 14, 2021 14:48:54 GMT -5
We have to bring him a chance to bring in HIS GUYS (shown here) View AttachmentThe five white spots are a little misleading. Scott, Dave and Jared would have graduated anyway without COVID. If they were offered to come back next year, they wouldn't have had a breakout year, just more of the same inconsistent and uneven play. Don't think Ash lost sleep over these departures. Yes we lose some youth in Ayinde, but it's to a much better player in Jig. As far as a loss, has Ayinde landed anywhere? Also lose Stone, who didn't prove himself. Two non-core departures with the Portal is pretty good actually. Having said that, we need a scorer and at least two positional players to provide depth around what we have. Also need Clark and Moore to up their game over the summer and Sherif to improve consistency. There's certainly work to be done Jared was a junior. Also doesn't show Ed's departure. All 5 of the blanks in that picture were HIS GUYS...his recruits. So saying they aren't a loss either means he didn't coach them well or didn't recruit well. Which is it?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 15:16:14 GMT -5
The five white spots are a little misleading. Scott, Dave and Jared would have graduated anyway without COVID. If they were offered to come back next year, they wouldn't have had a breakout year, just more of the same inconsistent and uneven play. Don't think Ash lost sleep over these departures. Yes we lose some youth in Ayinde, but it's to a much better player in Jig. As far as a loss, has Ayinde landed anywhere? Also lose Stone, who didn't prove himself. Two non-core departures with the Portal is pretty good actually. Having said that, we need a scorer and at least two positional players to provide depth around what we have. Also need Clark and Moore to up their game over the summer and Sherif to improve consistency. There's certainly work to be done Jared was a junior. Also doesn't show Ed's departure. All 5 of the blanks in that picture were HIS GUYS...his recruits. So saying they aren't a loss either means he didn't coach them well or didn't recruit well. Which is it? It's both. Also, I don't see a single "core" piece on this team. Brickus looks like it. But at times Ayinde, Stone, and Kenney all did. I don't see any of them as such now. I thought Jack Clark would be, but even by the end of the season there was plenty left to be desired. Moore I also had high hopes for, I dont see him as a core piece either. I guess the good news is that if you don't have any core pieces-no core pieces can transfer out.
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Post by a10champion15 on Apr 14, 2021 15:28:46 GMT -5
I really think some of you guys are underestimating how much firing Howard after 3 of 4 years would make this job even LESS attractive to potential coaches. "So not only do I have to coach in by far the worst facility in the league, with less money, less resources, and in a hugely competitive market, if I don't turn things around in a couple years, I'll be out on my ass?" 4 years is enough time to make a decision. It has to be done one way or another. For La Salle to extend if he has another losing season is far more damaging than the perception of La Salle is not patient with their coach (which isn't true and everyone knows that it is more patient than most schools). Obviously, there some concerns but we need to see how Ash's true first two classes progress and then go from there. 4 years is absolutely not long enough especially for a program like ours. Honestly, there are countless examples I could give you of coaches being mediocre to bad during their first few seasons and then finding their rhythm. La Salle is 99% for sure extending him so don't be surprised when it happens all depending if something completely out of the blue comes up.
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Post by explorer88 on Apr 14, 2021 16:01:15 GMT -5
4 years is enough time to make a decision. It has to be done one way or another. For La Salle to extend if he has another losing season is far more damaging than the perception of La Salle is not patient with their coach (which isn't true and everyone knows that it is more patient than most schools). Obviously, there some concerns but we need to see how Ash's true first two classes progress and then go from there. 4 years is absolutely not long enough especially for a program like ours. Honestly, there are countless examples I could give you of coaches being mediocre to bad during their first few seasons and then finding their rhythm. La Salle is 99% for sure extending him so don't be surprised when it happens all depending if something completely out of the blue comes up. I will be totally surprised if he is extended with another losing season. I understand it can happen but as a fan that is simply not acceptable for under any circumstances. La Salle cannot afford to extend him and if he doesn't pan out be on the hook for his contract for multiple years. Could they give him one year extension? Perhaps, but again for me a mistake. 4 years is enough time to see if a coach has a team that plays with discipline and plays defense, the team is getting better etc.... This is the measuring stick and not NCAA tournament appearance. As far as I and others are concerned he is going backwards and not ascending. I don't know how anyone can see any other way.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 16:09:07 GMT -5
Obviously, there some concerns but we need to see how Ash's true first two classes progress and then go from there. 4 years is absolutely not long enough especially for a program like ours. Honestly, there are countless examples I could give you of coaches being mediocre to bad during their first few seasons and then finding their rhythm. La Salle is 99% for sure extending him so don't be surprised when it happens all depending if something completely out of the blue comes up. I will be totally surprised if he is extended with another losing season. I understand it can happen but as a fan that is simply not acceptable for under any circumstances. La Salle cannot afford to extend him and if he doesn't pan out be on the hook for his contract for multiple years. Could they give him one year extension? Perhaps, but again for me a mistake. 4 years is enough time to see if a coach has a team that plays with discipline and plays defense, the team is getting better etc.... This is the measuring stick and not NCAA tournament appearance. As far as I and others are concerned he is going backwards and not ascending. I don't know how anyone can see any other way. I couldnt agree more with the latter part of 88's message. I think of Pickiell at Rutgers. He took over a bottom of the barrel program that was in shambles, very poor facilities relative to the conference, an undesirable job by almost every account and by year 2-3 they were by no means great, but you saw a team that was playing much better basketball and he was recruiting players up to compete in conference. Not that they were elite and this year they looked very good, but you at least saw them moving in an encouraging direction. We have not seen an encouraging direction and I think every game I watched this year was actually more frustrating and disappointing. Not losing, but the lack of effort, lack of cohesiveness, lack of leadership was awful. That is a coaching problem. Not a facilities, not a contract, not a dining hall, not a travel accommodation problem. Just coaching.
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Post by fvp47 on Apr 14, 2021 16:13:39 GMT -5
The five white spots are a little misleading. Scott, Dave and Jared would have graduated anyway without COVID. If they were offered to come back next year, they wouldn't have had a breakout year, just more of the same inconsistent and uneven play. Don't think Ash lost sleep over these departures. Yes we lose some youth in Ayinde, but it's to a much better player in Jig. As far as a loss, has Ayinde landed anywhere? Also lose Stone, who didn't prove himself. Two non-core departures with the Portal is pretty good actually. Having said that, we need a scorer and at least two positional players to provide depth around what we have. Also need Clark and Moore to up their game over the summer and Sherif to improve consistency. There's certainly work to be done Jared was a junior. Also doesn't show Ed's departure. All 5 of the blanks in that picture were HIS GUYS...his recruits. So saying they aren't a loss either means he didn't coach them well or didn't recruit well. Which is it? Clark, Kimbrough, Croswell and Osunniyi were all signed by Gianni on 11/14/17. So Kimbrough was not Howard's guy. Spencer and Beatty were seniors so I was not surprised to see them leave. If you look at the portal there are a lot of seniors leaving. Fatts Russell is a good example.
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Apr 14, 2021 16:32:56 GMT -5
Seniors or not, when a guy leaves and goes to another school before their eligibility is up, that's a transfer. Lee transferred from Drexel. Kimble transferred from St. Joes. Russell transferred from URI.
Ivy league schools don't allow 5 year players, so they gray shirt (unenroll for a year and basically take community college classes while staying near campus), and schools schools such as Davidson don't offer graduate classes, so guys like Grady get in asterisk.
But basically, excessive roster turnover that's not related to graduated/matriculation of eligibility is a problem for a school like La Salle that is trying to get good and stay good. We love these transfers when we get guys from the Big East, Big 10, SEC and ACC. But when these same kids leave us to go play in the American East or the MEAC, at least call it for what it is. Either they were overmatched in the A10, or they want to be the premier player at a low major that at best is going to be a 15 seed.... take your pick. While I can understand not wanting to be the 12th man at Indiana, I can't understand leaving the A10 to go play in the American East. Not when your getting major minutes and/or starting.
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Post by 23won on Apr 14, 2021 23:00:12 GMT -5
I will be totally surprised if he is extended with another losing season. I understand it can happen but as a fan that is simply not acceptable for under any circumstances. La Salle cannot afford to extend him and if he doesn't pan out be on the hook for his contract for multiple years. Could they give him one year extension? Perhaps, but again for me a mistake. 4 years is enough time to see if a coach has a team that plays with discipline and plays defense, the team is getting better etc.... This is the measuring stick and not NCAA tournament appearance. As far as I and others are concerned he is going backwards and not ascending. I don't know how anyone can see any other way. I couldnt agree more with the latter part of 88's message. I think of Pickiell at Rutgers. He took over a bottom of the barrel program that was in shambles, very poor facilities relative to the conference, an undesirable job by almost every account and by year 2-3 they were by no means great, but you saw a team that was playing much better basketball and he was recruiting players up to compete in conference. Not that they were elite and this year they looked very good, but you at least saw them moving in an encouraging direction. We have not seen an encouraging direction and I think every game I watched this year was actually more frustrating and disappointing. Not losing, but the lack of effort, lack of cohesiveness, lack of leadership was awful. That is a coaching problem. Not a facilities, not a contract, not a dining hall, not a travel accommodation problem. Just coaching. The Pickiell analogy is not a good one for our situation, and not accurate if you look at league record progression at bottom. In 17-18 Baker arrives - they still suck. In 18-19, Harper and Young (Texas transfer) arrive and they get a little better with talent and improve the following year In 20-21, they play a lot better, with the three core leaders having three full seasons of prime playing time. That would be like Jig, Clark, Kenney Ray and Moore two seasons from now. Pickiell also was a HC for 11 years before joining Rutgers, so a big difference with the Ash scenario. Bottom line, if we don't show improvement next year, we should look. If we do improve in A10 next year, I'd be ok with a one year extension and offer performance bonuses for performance but if the job ain't done by then (year 5) we should move on 2016–17 Rutgers 15–18 3–15 14th 2017–18 Rutgers 15–19 3–15 14th 2018–19 Rutgers 14–17 7–13
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 23:07:11 GMT -5
Yeah, they didn’t set the world on fire. But they had some very impressive wins last year. And played some more games VERY close. Something that cannot be said for Ash this year is the competitiveness. Ash’s first recruiting class is mostly gone. That’s a him issue. That’s not an issue to point to an unfair comp. I think Pickiell is a pretty good example with what he’s done at Rutgers and where we are/should be going. I’m not comparing Ash to him, I’m comparing the programs/state of the programs/competition of the programs relative to their conference.
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Apr 15, 2021 6:14:50 GMT -5
This year not withstanding (at least for Men's hoops), Rutgers is overmatched athletically across the board in the A10. They would be better off in the American, or maybe the ACC, but they wouldn't give up that huge television money that comes with the Big 10 network. We aren't in Big 10 country here, (we aren't really in ACC country either) and while NJ is a hot bed in athletics, there's zero connection the Big 10 schools outside of PSU. However, since the split of 7 years ago where the football schools left the Big East, Rutgers got left out in the cold.
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Post by 23won on Apr 15, 2021 7:50:54 GMT -5
Yeah, they didn’t set the world on fire. But they had some very impressive wins last year. And played some more games VERY close. Something that cannot be said for Ash this year is the competitiveness. Ash’s first recruiting class is mostly gone. That’s a him issue. That’s not an issue to point to an unfair comp. I think Pickiell is a pretty good example with what he’s done at Rutgers and where we are/should be going. I’m not comparing Ash to him, I’m comparing the programs/state of the programs/competition of the programs relative to their conference. It is part a coach issue but IMO it's a player experience and chemistry issue, and that may be bigger. Look how this year's Rutgers squad played in their first year together - they sucked. I'm not happy about the play variability (win at Dayton, SLU, at UR and a drubbing of the Dukes) and then losing at Fordham (where our team was flat and a Ram had a career night for 3s, it happens) and then two close St Joe games (which are admittedly high rivalry games regardless of record). But that is where experience and chemistry come in for a core group with little playing experience (Jig, Moore Clark all first year/full year; and Ray and Sherif two years). I think Ash needs to coach up -no excuses- particularly with re the the offensive flow which really sucked at times last year. But I am willing to give the core a year to gel and grow.
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Post by diehardexplorer on Apr 15, 2021 9:39:10 GMT -5
Yeah, they didn’t set the world on fire. But they had some very impressive wins last year. And played some more games VERY close. Something that cannot be said for Ash this year is the competitiveness. Ash’s first recruiting class is mostly gone. That’s a him issue. That’s not an issue to point to an unfair comp. I think Pickiell is a pretty good example with what he’s done at Rutgers and where we are/should be going. I’m not comparing Ash to him, I’m comparing the programs/state of the programs/competition of the programs relative to their conference. It is part a coach issue but IMO it's a player experience and chemistry issue, and that may be bigger. Look how this year's Rutgers squad played in their first year together - they sucked. I'm not happy about the play variability (win at Dayton, SLU, at UR and a drubbing of the Dukes) and then losing at Fordham (where our team was flat and a Ram had a career night for 3s, it happens) and then two close St Joe games (which are admittedly high rivalry games regardless of record). But that is where experience and chemistry come in for a core group with little playing experience (Jig, Moore Clark all first year/full year; and Ray and Sherif two years). I think Ash needs to coach up -no excuses- particularly with re the the offensive flow which really sucked at times last year. But I am willing to give the core a year to gel and grow. please do not make excuses for that fordham loss. it was inexcusable, just like being run off the floor by umass and gmu twice (and all four of those outcomes were decided by halftime).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2021 9:50:13 GMT -5
Yeah, they didn’t set the world on fire. But they had some very impressive wins last year. And played some more games VERY close. Something that cannot be said for Ash this year is the competitiveness. Ash’s first recruiting class is mostly gone. That’s a him issue. That’s not an issue to point to an unfair comp. I think Pickiell is a pretty good example with what he’s done at Rutgers and where we are/should be going. I’m not comparing Ash to him, I’m comparing the programs/state of the programs/competition of the programs relative to their conference. It is part a coach issue but IMO it's a player experience and chemistry issue, and that may be bigger. Look how this year's Rutgers squad played in their first year together - they sucked. I'm not happy about the play variability (win at Dayton, SLU, at UR and a drubbing of the Dukes) and then losing at Fordham (where our team was flat and a Ram had a career night for 3s, it happens) and then two close St Joe games (which are admittedly high rivalry games regardless of record). But that is where experience and chemistry come in for a core group with little playing experience (Jig, Moore Clark all first year/full year; and Ray and Sherif two years). I think Ash needs to coach up -no excuses- particularly with re the the offensive flow which really sucked at times last year. But I am willing to give the core a year to gel and grow. But how many years do we give him to get a core to fit together? If his guys aren't staying, it can't just be a revolving door of "players x,y,z need 2 or 3 years together" but none of them stay for 3 years. The play variability had to do with us making shots 3 times all season. But lets not forget about the historically bad losses against a mediocre Mason team. So much terrible basketball this year.
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MisterD
The Baptist Himself
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Post by MisterD on Apr 15, 2021 9:55:23 GMT -5
"I'm more negative about the program!"
"NO! I'm more negative about the program!"
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Apr 15, 2021 10:18:40 GMT -5
If we do improve in A10 next year, I'd be ok with a one year extension and offer performance bonuses for performance but if the job ain't done by then (year 5) we should move on The problem with this is...."improvement" in year 4 means finishing above 12th place. I would have hoped by year 4 we would be aiming higher than the PIG.
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Post by a10champion15 on Apr 15, 2021 10:19:42 GMT -5
At this point, I literally have no idea what some of you are even talking about.
It's the offseason, we have a core, have a couple guys coming in and from my knowledge have another on the way.
The doomsday rants are not just exaggerated but premature for Ash's work thus far. I can tell you the consensus around A10 media and coaches ain't down on Ash.
Let's just see how next season goes and dial it back.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Apr 15, 2021 10:34:40 GMT -5
For a lot of the core posters here, there's a complete inability to see La Salle as the rest of the conference/country does (i.e. realistically).
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Post by 23won on Apr 15, 2021 10:53:02 GMT -5
I'm with a10. We have a core that played all of one year. Two of that young core got A10 playing awards, something that has been sparse here since joining the league. Ash has work to do. Let's see who he can add and whether he can coach our team up in the standings. It took Pickiell and others 4 years to show turnaround results; I think Ash deserves the benefit of the doubt going into the forthcoming season to show progress overall in the A10. Beyond that all is fair game.
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Post by diehardexplorer on Apr 15, 2021 10:54:35 GMT -5
For a lot of the core posters here, there's a complete inability to see La Salle as the rest of the conference/country does (i.e. realistically). now that is funny.
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Post by diehardexplorer on Apr 15, 2021 10:57:10 GMT -5
It's the offseason, we have a core, have a couple guys coming in and from my knowledge have another on the way. so you're saying there's another commitment?
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MisterD
The Baptist Himself
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Post by MisterD on Apr 15, 2021 11:26:27 GMT -5
For a lot of the core posters here, there's a complete inability to see La Salle as the rest of the conference/country does (i.e. realistically). now that is funny. I assure you no one on the outside is looking at La Salle saying "man, that top assistant on the two-time national champs has had plenty of time to turn it around, they need to dump him and bring in that three point specialist who played there three decades ago".
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Post by diehardexplorer on Apr 15, 2021 12:32:04 GMT -5
I assure you no one on the outside is looking at La Salle saying "man, that top assistant on the two-time national champs has had plenty of time to turn it around, they need to dump him and bring in that three point specialist who played there three decades ago". no, what they're saying is "man, that la salle team has some decent talent but they were rarely prepared, played mostly lousy defense, turned the ball over way too much, got worse as the season went on and were poorly coached. No way that team should only have 8 wins" (the lincoln game doesn't count in their final record). not sure why you're bringing legler into this.
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Post by jellybean on Apr 15, 2021 12:46:58 GMT -5
At this point, I literally have no idea what some of you are even talking about. It's the offseason, we have a core, have a couple guys coming in and from my knowledge have another on the way. The doomsday rants are not just exaggerated but premature for Ash's work thus far. I can tell you the consensus around A10 media and coaches ain't down on Ash. Let's just see how next season goes and dial it back. SMH
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Post by jellybean on Apr 15, 2021 12:51:36 GMT -5
Jared was a junior. Also doesn't show Ed's departure. All 5 of the blanks in that picture were HIS GUYS...his recruits. So saying they aren't a loss either means he didn't coach them well or didn't recruit well. Which is it? Clark, Kimbrough, Croswell and Osunniyi were all signed by Gianni on 11/14/17. So Kimbrough was not Howard's guy. Spencer and Beatty were seniors so I was not surprised to see them leave. If you look at the portal there are a lot of seniors leaving. Fatts Russell is a good example. So Ash spoke at the Raftery dinner a couple of years ago. Said that he had a talk with all the recruits and in particular relays a story on Kimbrough. Kimbrough said that he wants to take some visits. Ash says " that ;s okay but if you do you need to know I won't have a scholarship for you." So in other words they ARE his players.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2021 12:57:57 GMT -5
I assure you no one on the outside is looking at La Salle saying "man, that top assistant on the two-time national champs has had plenty of time to turn it around, they need to dump him and bring in that three point specialist who played there three decades ago". no, what they're saying is "man, that la salle team has some decent talent but they were rarely prepared, played mostly lousy defense, turned the ball over way too much, got worse as the season went on and were poorly coached. No way that team should only have 8 wins" (the lincoln game doesn't count in their final record). not sure why you're bringing legler into this. spot. on.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Apr 15, 2021 13:16:24 GMT -5
I assure you no one on the outside is looking at La Salle saying "man, that top assistant on the two-time national champs has had plenty of time to turn it around, they need to dump him and bring in that three point specialist who played there three decades ago". You gave Ash an "incomplete" in the thread after his first year grading him. What grade do you give now after Year 3?
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Apr 15, 2021 14:32:33 GMT -5
not sure why you're bringing legler into this. Who said anything about Legler?
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Post by diehardexplorer on Apr 15, 2021 14:57:11 GMT -5
not sure why you're bringing legler into this. Who said anything about Legler? you are so clever, you know that? do they have a clever badge, because if they did, you would get it.
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Post by sidclassof69 on Apr 15, 2021 15:30:33 GMT -5
PALEESE! Stop all of this talk about hiring+ firing a coach! IMO - Yes, Ash has plenty of room for improvement, but also IMO, there is not a coach in the world who could recruit or tempt quality transfers to come to La Salle. The facilities, location, etc have been talked about forever, on this site, and nothing seems to happen. So let’s close the subject about getting a new coach,+ keep hounding the administration about what a 3rd or 4th rate program we have.
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Post by explorergrad08 on Apr 15, 2021 16:46:41 GMT -5
There is such a negative stench with a small group of posters here, who seemingly know everything, it is laughable.
Let's ignore the fact that the team beat the top 3 preseason teams in the Atlantic 10 this year, all while starting a freshman PG, sophomore shooting guard, wing who may as well be a freshman, a sophomore forward, and two centers who have been injured or haven't played much over each of their two-plus years.
Let's also ignore the fact that there was no ability to have kids on campus at all during the summer, which is when most get better.
Next year, there is a core group returning - 4 starters (Brickus, Moore, Clark, Ray) plus a 5th who was basically a starter in Kenney. Gill will improve - he showed some things that can help. Rutgers transfer will be the backup 5 man, and will be just fine in that role. And I think Marrero & Shepherd have the potential to be the best two recruits Howard has brought in. And at critical positions - a bigger guard who can score, and an athletic wing.
That's 9 solid A-10 players, all who have at least two years of eligibility left. Whether Moore & Doucoure use the extra year is anyone's guess.
It really is sad to see so many on here so quick to judge. And have no interest in hearing an argument contrary to their own flawed belief.
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