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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Feb 28, 2021 11:14:56 GMT -5
The list of academic all Americans who became nba players and then went into coaching is a list comprised of only great success stories. ready for that list when you can provide it
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Feb 28, 2021 11:23:22 GMT -5
So the Ashley Howard era stands: 10-21 15-15 10-15 (or so) 35-51. That’s a 40.7% win percentage. Not good, not good at all. But in John Giannini’s last three years, he won at a 39.8% clip (37-56). So is this excusing a bad team that at times seems poorly coached? No, but it’s all relative and, relative to the three years prior to his arrival, Howard is doing slightly better than Giannini who was on his fourth recruiting cycle. Splitting hairs here but Ash is 34-51, so 40.0%, and 33-51 vs D1 opponents, so 39.2%. Last year's wins against teams like FDU and Wagner don't excite me. This year's losses against St. Peter's and Army are concerning...and particularly germane as we discuss the MAAC. Worse...it's making me (and I'm sure others) not want to write that donation check...or get season tickets again. If a really good player leaves again, why would I have hope for next season and believe that next year is our year? It feels like the investing equivalent of "catching the falling knife" right now. I built in a win over Fordham...hence the "or so" in my this year record. With regards to your donation check, how La Salle is getting donations (specifically athletic ones) needs to be rethought. I'm not going to pretend to know how to do that, but I'd be interested to see how much a donation chart (both dollars and unique donations) correlates with basketball record. My guess is that while there might be a correlated increase in good years, that it is not significant with the exception MAYBE being 2013. We did not capitalize on 2013 though because we had the wrong people steering the ship at that time. St. Joe's has been up and down since 2001, but I know that they do better with donations than we do...and not even counting Hagen. Their alumni base is just better. Why? Maybe it is a demographic thing, no idea. I give a very little amount every year, but it is increasing. My guess is that amongst people I considered friends/was teammates with in college....that I am the only one giving to athletics.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Feb 28, 2021 11:30:15 GMT -5
What "really good player" has left? Non were getting a whole lot of playing time, nor went on to bigger and better programs. One transferred to Robert Morris (closer to home), the other to UMASS...Lowell. Neither of them were going to contribute where we would see more W's. Ed Croswell was what I consider to be the "really good player" that left. He was, arguably, their most impactful player last season. I don't think Ash knew how to coach him...or keep him. I put us above .500 with Ed on the roster this season.
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Post by kevin1aai on Feb 28, 2021 11:49:29 GMT -5
In the A10, which has been a multiple bid conference, we've received exact 1 NCAA bid since we've joined. And we really haven't hit the jackpot as far as recruits go. And we have trouble beating MAAC caliber teams as it is, let alone lose by 20 and 30+ points to middle of the road A10 teams. While in the MAAC, (and the ECC) we've had more players make it to the NBA and did not do such a bad job recruiting names like Lionel, Woods, Overton, Steve Black, Ralph Lewis, Butler and others. Attendance for A10 games are lukewarm at best. I don't see a new facility on the horizon. Going back to the MAAC, or a lower conference should not be discounted. Go back to what worked. Just sayin. What worked then will not work now. The basketball landscape has completely changed between the late 80's and the early 90's. Moving to the MAAC would only move us further down the food chain as far as recruits, fan interest and league prestige.
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Post by kevin1aai on Feb 28, 2021 11:53:46 GMT -5
Agree with part 1.... landscape has changed since the 80's and '90's. With respects to part 2, for the most part you're not getting A-10 recruits now and game attendance over the past 5 years is sparse anyway. People may start showing up again if the team starts winning. That's not happening in the A-10 anytime soon. 26 years and 1 tournament bid is enough of a sample size.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Feb 28, 2021 11:54:04 GMT -5
What "really good player" has left? Non were getting a whole lot of playing time, nor went on to bigger and better programs. One transferred to Robert Morris (closer to home), the other to UMASS...Lowell. Neither of them were going to contribute where we would see more W's. Ed Croswell was what I consider to be the "really good player" that left. He was, arguably, their most impactful player last season. I don't think Ash knew how to coach him...or keep him. I put us above .500 with Ed on the roster this season. You're higher on Ed than I am. He was a good player on a bad team. I don't think he's as relatively a good player on a good team. Does he help this team? Sure. But I don't think he's winning three games. And without the knowledge on why he left (which was a mistake on his part, I think objectively), maybe we shouldn't speculate on what Ash couldn't do.
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Post by explorer88 on Feb 28, 2021 12:00:02 GMT -5
I agree on Ed. Better player on a bad team.
He played no defense which I don’t want in the program. We need to steer away from those players. They will not build the program and sustain winning.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Feb 28, 2021 12:21:08 GMT -5
Since we are speculating...with Ed we beat Army, Fordham, and St. Peter's...and maybe Rhode Island. I was OK with his defense and he was developing. Led the team in defensive rebounds.
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Post by calsufan on Feb 28, 2021 12:25:53 GMT -5
Since we are speculating...with Ed we beat Army, Fordham, and St. Peter's...and maybe Rhode Island. I was OK with his defense and he was developing. Led the team in defensive rebounds. Being a good defensive rebounder has very little to do with being a good defender. Exhibit A: Charles Barkley. And I don't think his defense was developing...at all. Liked him as a player but he was a defensive liability.
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Post by big5explorer on Feb 28, 2021 12:26:18 GMT -5
A multi-bid league doesn't really matter when you only have winning seasons in conference play 4 times in 26 years. Talent level here except in 1-2 cases is more MAAC level than A-10. Watch the St. Peter's and Army games, as well as a few of the A-10 games where the team struggled to crack 50 points. No reason that LaSalle could not recruit the same way in the MAAC. Beef up the non-league schedule to make it attractive like Speedy did ,and there is the ability sell a legitimate chance to be in the NCAA every year. This team would not win the MAAC every year but certainly would not be consistently over-matched like this. A-10 isn't working for LaSalle and almost 30 years in it's hard to see that changing. While the thread is about the coach, it seems to be trending toward discussion of Conference. Five years ago I would have been mortified and heartbroken to consider a move back to the MAAC. Unless the new Prez & Board take the school in a new direction by an upgrade in facilities, a move the the MAAC is best for the program, the alumni, and most important, for the school. History of the last 25 years tells us we generally have zero hope to get a bid in any given year. Someone recently wrote here on this board, we always seem to be 2 years away from being 2 years away. Halfway through most years in the A10 we've been dead-in-the-water in the standings, with no chance for even an at-large bid, or even an NIT bid, and clinging to a miracle 4 or 5 straight-win run in the A10 tourney with any chance to hear our school's name called on Selection Sunday. Moving back to the MAAC at least gives us that chance. And, a bit more of an identity. We shared the A10 with St Joe's (and Temple), and they out-competed us. Back in the MAAC we still were able to occasionally still land a great player. And, even in a mediocre year in the MAAC, we might still have a chance at a hot conference tournament run. I also began to like a few "rivalry" games with teams like St Peter's and Manhattan. Who is our rival in the A10? It should be the Hawks, but it doesn't feel like it. And are the students/alumni any more excited for a game against St Louis than St Peters? With the MAAC being mostly a NY Metro conference, it may also help recruiting regular students from that area. I'd be curious to know if being in the A10 has brought many students in from Missouri, or Virginia or Rhode Island.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Feb 28, 2021 12:32:22 GMT -5
Since we are speculating...with Ed we beat Army, Fordham, and St. Peter's...and maybe Rhode Island. I was OK with his defense and he was developing. Led the team in defensive rebounds. Being a good defensive rebounder has very little to do with being a good defender. Exhibit A: Charles Barkley. And I don't think his defense was developing...at all. Liked him as a player but he was a defensive liability. He averaged 10.0 pts and 7.3 boards per game. This year, no one is at 10 (Kenney is at 9.9), and closest on the boards is Ray with 5.9.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Feb 28, 2021 12:32:23 GMT -5
I have thoughts on conferences but I’m gonna make that a postseason post.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Feb 28, 2021 12:33:50 GMT -5
I have thoughts on conferences but I’m gonna make that a postseason post. I look forward to your post on this at 4:01 PM on Wednesday I see us more of a Colonial Athletic Conference School than MAAC
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Feb 28, 2021 12:40:13 GMT -5
I have thoughts on conferences but I’m gonna make that a postseason post. I look forward to your post on this at 4:01 PM on Wednesday I see us more of a Colonial Athletic Conference School than MAAC Think bigger more complex. I'll probably start writing it tonight.
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Post by explorerentourage on Feb 28, 2021 12:41:33 GMT -5
So now people are saying we shouldn't be recruiting players who go onto becoming the Number 1 offensive rebounder in the country? I'll say it again, Number 1 IN THE COUNTRY.
As for jumping ship conference wise, some of you don't want to face the fact that if we were to join the MAAC tomorrow, we would have the worst facilities in that league as well.
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big5vet
Mop-Up Time
Posts: 102
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Post by big5vet on Feb 28, 2021 12:53:33 GMT -5
I have been a fan since the 1950s and vividly remember listening on radio to the Tom Gola led Explorers losing to the San Francisco Dons of Bill Russell and K. C. Jones in the 1955 NCAA championship game. After holding season tickets on two occasions in recent years I have attended fewer and fewer games in person. Now I have reached the point of annually becoming weary of hoping the team will turn around next year. I am also weary of becoming frustrated over the performance of our seniors, losing faith in them. I agree with what has been said about John Giannini and Ash Howard. I liked and wanted both to succeed. It was not their fault that an AD brought them on board. I am disappointed by the inability of our administration to adequately address the basketball facilities (and possibly loose John Glaser’s endowment). I believe our decision to join the Atlantic 10 was a good one but our lack of competitiveness in the conference has been, is and will continue to be an embarrassment. We are caught in an untenable situation without the resources to overcome the obstacles necessary to achieve success. Many members of the Atlantic 10 would welcome our departure. We have benefitted financially from membership by sharing in NCAA tournament revenues which would not have the case as a member of most, if not all, “downstream” conferences. On balance, I think the Atlantic 10 experience has been a wash for La Salle at this juncture.
I realize accomplishing some the following wish list items may seem ambitious. I am suggesting the group would be worthwhile medium-term objectives for the program to consider. If an objective is unrealistic specifics could be tweaked. The overall goal is for our team to become relevant again in its own realm and remain so over ten-year terms. MBB WISH LIST 1. Hire a successful college coach who “fits” La Salle. I liked Fran O’Hanlon for the job when he was interviewed or considered. Now we need a “young” Fran or a “young” Speedy. Somebody who knows the game, knows Philadelphia basketball, and will recruit and coach-up good players and role models. 2. Watch and attend games played by a well-coached, competitive, and entertaining team that makes an alumnus proud. 3. Consistently compete in the top tier (33%) of its conference. 4. Win on average about 60% - 70% of games annually. 5. Demolish and rebuild Trumark Financial Center/ Tom Gola Arena 6. Schedule 2 or 3 challenging out of conference teams. 7. Play to our strengths in recruiting by concentrating primarily on the Philadelphia tri-state region and secondarily on the Mid-Atlantic states. 8. Garner a total of 3 or 4 invitations from the NCAA and NIT tournaments combined per decade. 9. Join the CAA – Colonial Athletic Conference (in order of current standings): James Madison, Northeastern, Hofstra, Drexel, Charleston, Delaware, Elon, William & Mary, UNCW, Towson.
LESS IMPORTANT ISSUES 1. Being a member of a multi bid conference. 2. Pursuing high profile recruits. 3. Having a “name” head coach. 4. Returning to the MAAC is also feasible, just not my first choice.
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Post by broderickpresident on Feb 28, 2021 12:57:01 GMT -5
The list of academic all Americans who became nba players and then went into coaching is a list comprised of only great success stories. ready for that list when you can provide it Tony Bennett, Fred Hoiberg and Larry K at college level Billy Cunningham and Mike D’Antoni in pros (not so hot for Hoiberg in pros)
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Feb 28, 2021 13:06:06 GMT -5
Let's look at players Ash lost. There is argument on here about Ed as a major loss (tournament MVP aside), but it's clear where I stand on that. A look at the team leads from each of Ash's 3 years who left before their time: Ed was the leading rebounder his freshman year Ed was the leading rebounder his sophomore year and Hikim was the leader in assists. Yes, Brickus has 3.5 per game and Hikim had 2.5 per game before leaving, but in terms of assists per minute, Hikim had more. In a game yesterday where we had 4 assists on 22 made shots, I wonder if a Hikim could have helped. Looking this year, let's say any one of Kenney, Brickus, or Ray leaves (and there are rumblings about each of them...I worried about Ray when the school cut baseball since his brother played baseball here)...who steps in to fill the gaps? More importantly, why has Ash lost people and what can he do to keep these statistical leaders?
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Post by explorer88 on Feb 28, 2021 13:09:39 GMT -5
Let's look at players Ash lost. There is argument on here about Ed as a major loss (tournament MVP aside), but it's clear where I stand on that. A look at the team leads from each of Ash's 3 years who left before their time: Ed was the leading rebounder his freshman year View AttachmentEd was the leading rebounder his sophomore year and Hikim was the leader in assists. View AttachmentYes, Brickus has 3.5 per game and Hikim had 2.5 per game before leaving, but in terms of assists per minute, Hikim had more. In a game yesterday where we had 4 assists on 22 made shots, I wonder if a Hikim could have helped. Looking this year, let's say any one of Kenney, Brickus, or Ray leaves (and there are rumblings about each of them...I worried about Ray when the school cut baseball since his brother played baseball here)...who steps in to fill the gaps? More importantly, why has Ash lost people and what can he do to keep these statistical leaders? View AttachmentRay? He is a nice player but is way too overrated to move the needle for this program. He is about the 40th best player in the conference. It doesn’t matter who leaves with this coach. We are not going to improve significantly regardless.
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Post by broderickpresident on Feb 28, 2021 13:12:34 GMT -5
ready for that list when you can provide it Tony Bennett, Fred Hoiberg and Larry K at college level Billy Cunningham and Mike D’Antoni in pros (not so hot for Hoiberg in pros) Also Doug Collins and Danny Ainge Jacque Vaughn and Rod Thorn, as well, though Thorn more known for front office work and Vaughn robbed of his chance in Brooklyn this season by ‘unqualified’ Steve Nash (a great success thus far). There’s nothing magical about coaching. To say Legler is unqualified is absurd. Like anyone else, hiring the right assistants would be important but he can do the job, and well
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Post by belfieldhappyhour on Feb 28, 2021 13:16:31 GMT -5
Three thoughts reading this thread -
1) When was the last time a school moved down a conference? (I'm sure its happened, but I don't recall.) And my question doesn't relate to UConn or Temple moving 'down' in basketball conferences because their football team moved to a 'bigger' football league.
2) For those that think changing to a one-bid league isn't a big deal when we aren't getting bids anyway, I say look at the bigger picture. La Salle's finances suck, for lack of better word. The hundreds of thousands of dollars (or whatever the amount is) that we get from the league every year because of other schools making the Dance, is important to our budget. Sadly, we might be the only team in the league that says that.
3) Just give my man Mountain the men's coaching job!!!!!!
(Note - there may be sarcasm in one of these thoughts)
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Post by calsufan on Feb 28, 2021 13:18:05 GMT -5
Being a good defensive rebounder has very little to do with being a good defender. Exhibit A: Charles Barkley. And I don't think his defense was developing...at all. Liked him as a player but he was a defensive liability. He averaged 10.0 pts and 7.3 boards per game. This year, no one is at 10 (Kenney is at 9.9), and closest on the boards is Ray with 5.9. You're moving the goalposts. I know how many points he was averaging and his rebounding ability. What I called into question was your assertion that his defense was improving. He was not a defender, at all. Good player, great rebounder, but not good on defense.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Feb 28, 2021 13:58:50 GMT -5
He averaged 10.0 pts and 7.3 boards per game. This year, no one is at 10 (Kenney is at 9.9), and closest on the boards is Ray with 5.9. You're moving the goalposts. I know how many points he was averaging and his rebounding ability. What I called into question was your assertion that his defense was improving. He was not a defender, at all. Good player, great rebounder, but not good on defense. I thought he was getting better...fouling out less. Thought his game against SLU when we went into OT and lost by 1 was a good defensive game for him against French...playing 38 minutes and only committing 2 fouls. Figured he would make a defensive jump his junior year if they worked with him.
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Post by talkinbball on Feb 28, 2021 14:46:17 GMT -5
I don't post much anymore because there is too much of a wash, rinse, repeat element to our situation. Until/unless the facility issue gets addressed our circumstances will never change. No matter who the coach is he is bringing a knife to a gun fight. Whether Ash, G or a resurrected John Wooden to reasonably expect consistent success has been, and always will be, a pipe dream. For La Salle to spend money to buy out a coach is a waste of limited resources. The difference between a good and bad coach at La Salle is not great enough to make a significant difference.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Feb 28, 2021 14:55:18 GMT -5
Tony Bennett, Fred Hoiberg and Larry K at college level Billy Cunningham and Mike D’Antoni in pros (not so hot for Hoiberg in pros) Also Doug Collins and Danny Ainge Jacque Vaughn and Rod Thorn, as well, though Thorn more known for front office work and Vaughn robbed of his chance in Brooklyn this season by ‘unqualified’ Steve Nash (a great success thus far). There’s nothing magical about coaching. To say Legler is unqualified is absurd. Like anyone else, hiring the right assistants would be important but he can do the job, and well Let's leave NBA coaches out of this. I see your concept working in the NBA because it's less about coaching the guys and more about coaching the game. So taking your three examples. Tony Bennett: Played in 152 NBA games averaging 3.5 points. Has been wildly successful at Virginia. Fred Hoiberg: Played 10 years in the NBA. Had success at Iowa State with someone else's players. Has 13 wins in two seasons at Nebraska. Larry Krystkowiak (I'm assuming this is who you mean): Played 10 years in the NBA. Was great at Montana in the Big Sky conference. Has no Pac-12 championships and two NCAA bids in 10 years at Utah. My point? Your super small dataset doesn't prove your thesis in my example. Tony Bennett is a great example, but he took over for his dad at Washington State (Pac 10) and then won a national championship at Virginia (ACC). You could coach Virginia and get seven OOC wins just based on conference affiliation alone. All this gets away from the point. Tony Bennett didn't coach AAU and go on ESPN after his playing days. He immediately started coaching. Same with Krystowiak, who started before he even retired from the NBA. Hoiberg did player development in the NBA for four years then started coaching. Tim Legler has been out of the league since 1999 when her took a job with ESPN. He coached his son's AAU team like a decade-plus later. See the difference? I'm not going to say he's definitively going to be a bad college coach if he ever is a college coach. But the move would be incredibly abnormal and, despite La Salle's penchant for doing abnormal things, it doesn't make sense.
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Post by theneumann64 on Feb 28, 2021 14:58:31 GMT -5
We’re never going to voluntarily drop down to a lower conference, but the if there is another major shake-up (which will happen at some point), it’s at least arguable we’d be better off in a “lower” league that we’d be more competitive in. Like Joe said, that’s probably a much deeper discussion for a separate thread in the fast-approaching off-season.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Feb 28, 2021 14:59:34 GMT -5
Like Joe said, that’s probably a much deeper discussion for a separate thread in the fast-approaching off-season. I sat down and started writing when the kid took his nap. 2300 words. Sorry everyone.
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Post by sweat83 on Feb 28, 2021 16:52:37 GMT -5
We’re never going to voluntarily drop down to a lower conference, but the if there is another major shake-up (which will happen at some point), it’s at least arguable we’d be better off in a “lower” league that we’d be more competitive in. Like Joe said, that’s probably a much deeper discussion for a separate thread in the fast-approaching off-season. Can't wait. Will that surface before, or after the "Facilities" thread?
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Post by big5explorer on Feb 28, 2021 18:48:04 GMT -5
I look forward to your post on this at 4:01 PM on Wednesday I see us more of a Colonial Athletic Conference School than MAAC Think bigger more complex. I'll probably start writing it tonight. Ivy League? ;-)
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Post by gymrat67 on Feb 28, 2021 19:50:12 GMT -5
You win at a place like La Salle with a system that you recruit players that fit the system not recruit talent to design a system around. The school and facilities will limit your access to the highest level talent and without a system there’s failure. Billy Hahn failed b/c he was a great recruiter G failed because he was a great recruiter but got luck for two years a decade ago with Ramon Galloway Ash is struggling because he’s trying to recruit elite talent but settling for less than elite other than Brickus. A coach with a true system like Schmidt, McKillop, Mooney, etc would do incredibly well at La Salle because average to slightly above average raw talent is plentiful in the immediate area that could thrive in a true system at a place like la Salle. I don’t know what the system is but we haven’t had a true on-court identity via style of play since 2013 and that was only because an injury forced the 4 guard lineup. I don’t know what ash’s system of basketball is after 3 seasons. They don’t press or plays full court; they don’t move the ball on offense crisply to open 3 point attempts, they don’t play hard pressure d. I’m not sure what the system is but if it’ not clear I’m not sure what the optimism would be for. Exactly right. That is what I said. Find a successful lower level coach willing to bring his system to a higher level but you need to make sure his system recruits kids La Salle can get. LANDRY KOSMALSKI ? www.nytimes.com/2020/03/06/sports/swarthmore-basketball.html?smid=em-share He's the best men's college basketball coach in the Philadelphia area, and you don't know his name / Bob Ford www.inquirer.com/college-sports/ncaa-basketball-championship-swarthmore-landry-kosmalski-20200124.html
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