Ivy League Cancels Basketball Season

[big5explorer]

Nov 17, 2020 6:20:56 GMT -5 doctafeelgood said:

there is no point to being so smug when commenting. not sure what your job is but i seriously doubt that all you do all day long is look at studies...............

.........I just don't understand why you are not willing to say it is reasonable to hold off on sports when there is a greater good when taking a stance of safety is not only reasonable but warranted. and btw that is coming from a guy that is all sports all the time.

Apologies if my comments come off as smug. And yes, I look as studies throughout most of my workdays. Many of them Covid related. In addition to seeing patients, I peer review journal articles 5 days a week.

I have yet to see a single study showing that it is dangerous for a young, healthy athlete to return to sports when they are asymptomatic post-Covid infection. Until there is any indication that it is dangerous, there is no reason in my medical opinion to restrict athletes from playing. And certainly no indication to cancel an entire sports season.

It is also my medical opinion that the "greater good" for these athletes would be to play the sport to which they have dedicated most of their entire lives --because staying home and not playing is no safer. In fact, not playing is likely more dangerous -- to their mental health and to their physical health.

[big5explorer]

Nov 17, 2020 5:32:34 GMT -5 JoeFedorowicz said:

Here’s a study or two or three. Some are them involve other countries so they might not be valid.

alzres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13195-020-00640-3

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395620308542?via%3Dihub

www.ersnet.org/the-society/news/covid-19-patients-suffer-long-term-lung-and-heart-damage-but-it-can-improve-with-time

None of the above are useful on the topic of the safety of young college athletes playing sports during the pandemic, or returning to sports post Covid infection.

The first is not a study. It is an opinion piece. A "Viewpoint." It is a review of neurological symptoms of Covid. The common ones, like headache and loss of taste or smell, are short-lived, and not permanent. The more serious ones, like stroke, are rare and tend to occur in older patients with multiple co-morbid medical issues, like obesity, high blood pressure, diabetes, and pre-existing heart disease.

The second one is a small study of 29 patients, done in China, and includes no one under age 30. It shows mostly mixed cognitive results, which are likely short term, and also not likely specific to Covid. If a study was done weeks after someone had the flu, or mononucleosis, or bacterial pneumonia, you might expect the same result. But who knows -- because the study used healthy controls instead. Most important, the study provides no evidence that returning to sports for a young college athlete post-Covid is dangerous, or detrimental to their health.

The third study was done as a follow up on hospitalized patients. The average age was 61. Half had a smoking history. The study has zero application to college athletes. The chance of a college aged kid, especially an athlete, getting hospitalized with Covid is remote, at best. I'm happy to provide data on how seldom college students are hospitalized with Covid -- but know that it is less likely than hospitalizations for influenza in this age group.

[MisterD]

I don't think the argument here is "should kids return to practice if they've already tested positive", its about holding a season that will cause positives in the first place.

[MisterD]

(And I'm begging the collective board to not go with the dismissive "kids will just do things that can lead to Covid exposure anyway". That's not justification for using students to generate revenue while simultaneously keeping almost every other student at home for their own safety. Its like saying "kids are going to drive drunk anyway so I may as well get drunk and charge them for rides home myself".)

[JoeFedorowicz]

With all due respect, a study of college athletes probably isn't something anyone needs to do right now. But since you went bit by bit though my list:

1) Is from "Alzheimer's Research and Therapy", a medical journal. It says this:

Increasing evidence suggests that infection with Sars-CoV-2 causes neurological deficits in a substantial proportion of affected patients. While these symptoms arise acutely during the course of infection, less is known about the possible long-term consequences for the brain. Severely affected COVID-19 cases experience high levels of proinflammatory cytokines and acute respiratory dysfunction and often require assisted ventilation. All these factors have been suggested to cause cognitive decline. Pathogenetically, this may result from direct negative effects of the immune reaction, acceleration or aggravation of pre-existing cognitive deficits, or de novo induction of a neurodegenerative disease. This article summarizes the current understanding of neurological symptoms of COVID-19 and hypothesizes that affected patients may be at higher risk of developing cognitive decline after overcoming the primary COVID-19 infection. A structured prospective evaluation should analyze the likelihood, time course, and severity of cognitive impairment following the COVID-19 pandemic.

The second one was in China (thanks for passing my test with that "done in China" clause) and did only include 29 people. Says this:

This study aims to evaluate the impacts of COVID-19 on cognitive functions in recovered patients and its relationship with inflammatory profiles. Twenty-nine patients recovered from COVID-19 as confirmed by negative nucleic tests for two consecutive times were recruited. A total of 29 age-, gender- and education-matched healthy controls were also recruited. The cognitive functions of all subjects were evaluated by the iPad-based online neuropsychological tests, including the Trail Making Test (TMT), Sign Coding Test (SCT), Continuous Performance Test (CPT), and Digital Span Test (DST)....In conclusion, our findings indicated that cognitive impairments exist even in patients recovered from COVID-19, and might be possibly linked to the underlying inflammatory processes.

Why did I include these two things? Because they indicate possible cognitive impairments and slower reaction times amongst those recovered from Covid. Both of these things are relevant to being an athlete. While the study didn't look at 5000 college athletes in the United States like you'd probably like, it also does not make any indications that people in their late teens and early 20s are immune to this problem. 

I don't know why we live in this fantasyland where Covid won't kill a healthy younger person. It does. Not often. Not even close to often. But it does kill healthy college students on occasion. And even if it doesn't kill you, there is evidence through peer reviewed studies that there are long-term (or at least mid-term) cognitive effects of coronavirus.

So what is the number of acceptable deaths of college students so that we can play college basketball? The Ivy League clearly thinks this is closer to 0 than you do. And that's ok, we're all allowed to believe what we want, but don't come out and say there are no studies saying it doesn't effect people long term. Those studies clearly exist.

[victoriouslasalle]

Nov 14, 2020 11:40:37 GMT -5 victoriouslasalle said:

Nov 14, 2020 9:53:57 GMT -5 big5explorer said:

Smart move. Can't have Ivy League athletes dying from Covid like countless other college students have.

Big5explorer, you are obviously in disagreement, clearly of a different mind here. But, sarcasm aside (surely they can see deaths of college athletes a low probability event , any thoughts on why they are making this decision, e.g. their concerns medically (your area), or your thoughts on economic, social concerns etc.? Why do you think they are they doing this? Thanks.

This discussion about the long term effects on the students health of Covid is certainly deserving of attention and debate. I hope it continues. But, it really narrows the view and may only partially explain why responsible decision makers are taking actions to close some things down. We are now looking at near ¼ of a million national deaths projected to 400 k over the next 2 months. The disease numbers are escalating out of control this is ringing alarm bells and seen as a critical threat to those in leadership positions. I realize that there are some that disagree with these stats (perhaps you) . But I am strongly suspecting that this is what is a critical driver of decision makers. What do you think Big5Explorer? I am not asking if it concerns you but do believe that is their concern?
It is not that I am not interested in your opinions but looking to see if you recognize theirs and what they perceive they are grappling with.

[MisterD]

Most NFL players who have been placed on the COVID-19 reserve list have recovered relatively quickly and returned to the field. But Bills tight end Tommy Sweeney is a reminder of how serious this disease can be, even for healthy young people.

Sweeney, who was placed on the COVID-19 reserve list on October 24, has developed myocarditis, a heart condition related to COVID-19, and will miss the rest of the season.

Myocarditis is an inflammation of the heart muscle that can affect the heart’s ability to pump and cause rapid or abnormal heart rhythms. Many viruses can cause myocarditis, and it is a major concern for athletes who contract COVID-19.

The 25-year-old Sweeney was a seventh-round pick of the Bills out of Boston College last year.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/11/23/bills-tommy-sweeney-out-for-the-season-with-myocarditis-stemming-from-covid-19/

[GlitterBro #2]

Nov 23, 2020 16:31:07 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Most NFL players who have been placed on the COVID-19 reserve list have recovered relatively quickly and returned to the field. But Bills tight end Tommy Sweeney is a reminder of how serious this disease can be, even for healthy young people.

Sweeney, who was placed on the COVID-19 reserve list on October 24, has developed myocarditis, a heart condition related to COVID-19, and will miss the rest of the season.

Myocarditis is an inflammation of the heart muscle that can affect the heart’s ability to pump and cause rapid or abnormal heart rhythms. Many viruses can cause myocarditis, and it is a major concern for athletes who contract COVID-19.

The 25-year-old Sweeney was a seventh-round pick of the Bills out of Boston College last year.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/11/23/bills-tommy-sweeney-out-for-the-season-with-myocarditis-stemming-from-covid-19/

Flu can also cause that...just FYI....perhaps we should make everyone wear masks during flu season when they are playing.

www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1702090

CONCLUSIONS

We found a significant association between respiratory infections, especially influenza, and acute myocardial infarction.


-----------------------------------------------------------

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3533457/

Acute myocarditis is a well-known complication of influenza infection. The clinical expression varies from asymptomatic to fulminant myocarditis, which can result in severe hemodynamic dysfunction, necessitating high-dose catecholamines and mechanical circulatory support

[gymrat67]

Apropos several of these topics, see also the two articles referenced and cited in my post of September 27, 2020 re: " COVID-19 Long-Haulers " on page 18 of the Other Discussion board Coronavirus thread.

[23won]

Nov 17, 2020 6:20:56 GMT -5 doctafeelgood said:

there is no point to being so smug when commenting. not sure what your job is but i seriously doubt that all you do all day long is look at studies.  

Exhibit A on what a smug statement looks like

[23won]

I think there is a lower risk of contracting Covid through NCAA sports than there is compared to general life activities, like walking into a supermarket or eating takeout. Players get tested often and get far better medical care than regular students and for that matter you and me, given the multiple people who deliver or handle the ingredients, touch and hover over whatever takeout food or grocery food you now buy.

The issue is whether to live in a complete bubble or begin resuming regular life events like college sports with great medical oversight and minimal to no fans at events.

For all the bubble obsessed, fear mongering faction, consider that many lives can be saved by increased medical attention given to athletes. One case in point is Penn State's Journey Brown, a Junior redshirt who was on many Heisman watch lists this year and a likely high NFL pick. With the enhanced testing and medical attention THIS year (compared to others) he was diagnosed with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy and had to relinquish a sports career for life due to his condition. This wasn't a byproduct of Covid by the way.

Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is a condition usually caused by abnormal genes in the heart muscle that cause the walls of the heart chamber to become thicker than normal, which can reduce the amount of blood pumped throughout the body, according to the American Heart Association. It's a chronic disease that can worsen over time. It's also a condition that cost many "picture of health" athletes their lives over the past few decades.

[Deleted]

Nov 23, 2020 17:09:07 GMT -5 GlitterBro #2 said:

Nov 23, 2020 16:31:07 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Most NFL players who have been placed on the COVID-19 reserve list have recovered relatively quickly and returned to the field. But Bills tight end Tommy Sweeney is a reminder of how serious this disease can be, even for healthy young people.

Sweeney, who was placed on the COVID-19 reserve list on October 24, has developed myocarditis, a heart condition related to COVID-19, and will miss the rest of the season.

Myocarditis is an inflammation of the heart muscle that can affect the heart’s ability to pump and cause rapid or abnormal heart rhythms. Many viruses can cause myocarditis, and it is a major concern for athletes who contract COVID-19.

The 25-year-old Sweeney was a seventh-round pick of the Bills out of Boston College last year.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/11/23/bills-tommy-sweeney-out-for-the-season-with-myocarditis-stemming-from-covid-19/

Flu can also cause that...just FYI....perhaps we should make everyone wear masks during flu season when they are playing.

www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1702090

CONCLUSIONS

We found a significant association between respiratory infections, especially influenza, and acute myocardial infarction.


-----------------------------------------------------------

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3533457/

Acute myocarditis is a well-known complication of influenza infection. The clinical expression varies from asymptomatic to fulminant myocarditis, which can result in severe hemodynamic dysfunction, necessitating high-dose catecholamines and mechanical circulatory support

You can contract the flu at any time of year. Perhaps we should wear masks all the time. 

[theneumann64]

Nov 24, 2020 9:06:08 GMT -5 @endlessexploring15 said:

Nov 23, 2020 17:09:07 GMT -5 GlitterBro #2 said:

Flu can also cause that...just FYI....perhaps we should make everyone wear masks during flu season when they are playing.

www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1702090

CONCLUSIONS

We found a significant association between respiratory infections, especially influenza, and acute myocardial infarction.


-----------------------------------------------------------

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3533457/

Acute myocarditis is a well-known complication of influenza infection. The clinical expression varies from asymptomatic to fulminant myocarditis, which can result in severe hemodynamic dysfunction, necessitating high-dose catecholamines and mechanical circulatory support

You can contract the flu at any time of year. Perhaps we should wear masks all the time. 

I know you're purposely being dismissive, but this thing has really underscored just how a shitty a job we do in general with the flu, and hopefully when this is all over, we've normalized people wearing masks in public when they feel symptoms of the flu of just general common cold symptoms.

There's no point in debating this. Plenty of people have made it plain that they don't think a virus that's killed a quarter of a million Americans (that number is likely a lot higher) is worth taking seriously, at least not to the point that inconveniences them. Of course college athletes in general are more likely to be in good shape and are young, so they will on average handle getting the virus better than older or less fit people. But YOU CAN SPREAD THE FUCKING VIRUS, even if you yourself are not symptomatic. I don't know where I come down on college basketball being played, other than I really doubt every school is able to devote the resources to keeping everything safe that a pro league can (and even then, look at the issues in the NFL and MLB this year), but at least there it's professionals who are being compensated for playing, and have the protections of a union. But just because the statistical likelihood of a player dying, or having serious long-term health consequences, from catching COVID is comparatively low, does not make the that the only factor worth considering.

[MisterD]

Nov 23, 2020 17:09:07 GMT -5 GlitterBro #2 said:

Flu can also cause that...just FYI....perhaps we should make everyone wear masks during flu season when they are playing.

If you can show me a modern day annual flu that has take two (three if you believe this is what that Jaguars RB is dealing with) professional athletes out for the season, go for it. It would only confirm the obvious good-faith and wisdom of your post. Thank you.

[GlitterBro #2]

Nov 24, 2020 16:51:28 GMT -5 MisterD said:

Nov 23, 2020 17:09:07 GMT -5 GlitterBro #2 said:

Flu can also cause that...just FYI....perhaps we should make everyone wear masks during flu season when they are playing.

If you can show me a modern day annual flu that has take two (three if you believe this is what that Jaguars RB is dealing with) professional athletes out for the season, go for it. It would only confirm the obvious good-faith and wisdom of your post. Thank you.

right. We should only be concerned with the athletes getting myocarditis. Forget everyone else st risk.

[MisterD]

Exactly. My argument over the last 8 months has consistently been that we need to open everything up except for the sports leagues.

[belfieldhappyhour]

Wasn't sure if we should start a new thread with Covid game related stuff, so I figured I dump this here. Temple is on a Covid related pause

[MisterD]

Another kid apparently having issues getting over the flu: www.si.com/nba/2020/12/01/orlando-magic-center-mo-bamba-doubtful-to-return-before-nba-season-starts

[JoeFedorowicz]

Sports Illustrated isn’t a medical journal though.

[GlitterBro #2]

Dec 1, 2020 19:34:49 GMT -5 JoeFedorowicz said:

Sports Illustrated isn’t a medical journal though.

Except this issue

[JoeFedorowicz]

Dec 1, 2020 20:49:47 GMT -5 GlitterBro #2 said:

Dec 1, 2020 19:34:49 GMT -5 JoeFedorowicz said:

Sports Illustrated isn’t a medical journal though.

Except this issue


View Attachment

+1

[MisterD]

[JoeFedorowicz]

Al Blades isn’t a medical journal

[MisterD]

So who else do we need to add here? "Possibly" Keyonte Johnson. Definitely Marco Rossi (Minnesota Wild, age 19).

[big5explorer]

Turns out Covid-related myocarditis may be as rare as Ivy League basketball games.

www.medscape.com/viewarticle/944648

As an aside, many other viral and bacterial illnesses probably cause transient, and clinically insignificant, myocarditis.

[MisterD]

In lieu of absolute certainty, it makes sense to assume whatever fits the prior narrative.

[big5explorer]

Feb 2, 2021 12:04:57 GMT -5 MisterD said:

In lieu of absolute certainty, it makes sense to assume whatever fits the prior narrative.

I never go outside anymore. Can't say for 100% certainty there isn't a tornado out there...