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Post by crayzeeguy on Apr 19, 2018 13:50:06 GMT -5
Yes, totally Teliow. Clearly a highly trafficked personal blog by CULTURE GRRL. I'll be sure to ignore all 3 protestors at the opening of the Alumni House too. I dunno, this is how she describes herself in her bio... CULTUREGRRL (Lee Rosenbaum) is the artworld's award-winning "best blog*." *presented in 2009 by the Newswomen's Club of NY
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Post by ltrain38 on Apr 19, 2018 13:56:34 GMT -5
I get why some people feel this sale is necessary for financial reasons, given the depth of the inherited deficit in the university's budget. If they're doing it anyway, I guess I'm glad a few pieces netted more than estimates. But speaking from the point of view of someone in academia, this has been awful for our reputation as an institution. It guts a valuable resource for teaching and research and I've had colleagues with no other knowledge about La Salle asking about the sale. If it's the difference between the university closing or surviving, I'll accept it, but the academic profile of the school is clearly lower and pretending that there are no negatives is disingenuous.
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Post by durenduren on Apr 19, 2018 14:06:10 GMT -5
Gutting a valuable resource... La Sallian educators are literally teaching in 82 countries across the world, and we have drastically under-utilized that incredible resource, just like the art on our campus. I'd argue that there's more value in exploring what the vast resource provided by the La Sallian network can add to our experience than our quaint museum.
Christian Brothers Investment Services anyone? Could be a worthwhile connection worth exploring for educational purposes, if no other reasons.
Christian Brothers are responsible for running the only school in Israel that represents all three of the major religions - Jewish, Muslim, and Christian - under one roof. That's absolutely insane. The educational value there for our students? It it's got amazing potential.
The value of this network makes this art museum thing seem so trivial.
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Post by ltrain38 on Apr 19, 2018 14:14:46 GMT -5
The international network of La Sallian Christian Brothers has nothing to do with the discussion of the art sale. It's a deflection - look over there, there's another, more valuable resource. So what? I had classes in the art gallery in history, literature, philosophy, and art history courses all four years. It's being used, at least as of about ten years ago.
But what would you have the University do with those international connections? Expanding study abroad opportunities through a consortium with other La Sallian schools? They've already done that. Inviting speakers from Bethlehem University? They did that when I was a student. Those are great resources. The administration has done well to open them up. None of them address the critique of the art sale - that it violates ethics of major organizations in the art world and has been perceived in academia broadly as a removal of emphasis from the humanities. Acknowledging that we have other good things going on doesn't change that.
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Post by durenduren on Apr 19, 2018 14:29:31 GMT -5
It wasn't a deflection, merely a point that I think proves that the art isn't the be-all, end-all as it had suddenly been championed to be since this was announced. It was hardly an after-thought before this announcement, and we all know that to be true. But I'm not going to dive too deep into the art argument again. I understand your point, but the university needed the money. I'd guess that many more programs under the humanities would be facing a far-worse fate if we didn't sell some art.
Side note - I disagree that the La Sallian network is championed as you say. While some things have occurred, it's still stuck behind crippling modesty masked as humility.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Apr 19, 2018 14:36:18 GMT -5
Its stuff like this that makes me wish I could go back in time and have everyone list out what, both tangible and intangible, they believe it is that makes La Salle so valuable. I can't imagine "art collection/museum" makes many lists.
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Post by ltrain38 on Apr 19, 2018 14:37:09 GMT -5
But that worse fate already came to some programs. They slashed language offerings and other majors already a year ago. I could live with that. Does La Salle need a film studies major? Probably not. But there's a cumulative weight of the impact on the humanities of not offering degrees in any language besides Spanish and publicly selling off art. My suspicion is that students who want to study the humanities will not consider La Salle. In the short term, yes, this will solve a financial shortfall, and as I said, if it's the difference between shutting down and continuing on, I'll accept it. Without pouring over the budget and resources of the university (which I honestly don't have time for, given my workload for next few months), I don't have a proposal from where to raise that money. But the Art Gallery was used (at least in the Honors Program, in my experience) and we need to accept that this has a real cost in reputation.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Apr 19, 2018 14:37:46 GMT -5
The sale of the La Salle art in question could fund the professors in the Wister building for a year. Or La Salle can fire some of them.
You want to offer 100 majors with 7 students in each? That’s how you get into this mess.
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Post by ltrain38 on Apr 19, 2018 14:40:28 GMT -5
That is not how we got into this mess. We got into this mess by trying to consolidate the campus for vague "student life" reasons on credit, with no tangible benefit to education at all. Buying a hospital for nursing programs, I get. Buying up houses to build shops was a waste and far more damaging than faculty salaries.
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Post by durenduren on Apr 19, 2018 14:56:30 GMT -5
Just sayin... It's a shame that the vocal opposition to the art sale didn't show the same passion before the sale was announced.
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Post by ltrain38 on Apr 19, 2018 15:06:42 GMT -5
You're saying that opposition to a sale no one was talking about publicly should have materialized before someone announced it publicly? I feel like this thread has gone from making serious arguments to petty trolling of the "maybe a university has educational uses for art" position.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Apr 19, 2018 15:12:05 GMT -5
He's saying appreciation for the sale items seemingly didn't exist until the sale was announced.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Apr 19, 2018 15:12:50 GMT -5
Its more or less how I could go into my oldest's stuffed animal bin, dig all the way to the bottom for something that has literally never been played with, and if I suggest donating it it would be an absolute tragedy.
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Post by durenduren on Apr 19, 2018 15:14:33 GMT -5
You're saying that opposition to a sale no one was talking about publicly should have materialized before someone announced it publicly? I feel like this thread has gone from making serious arguments to petty trolling of the "maybe a university has educational uses for art" position. No, stop twisting my words. You know what I'm saying, stop fabricating ridiculous narratives. I'm saying absolutely nobody spoke of the art museum at all - sans a course or two using it once in blue moon. And since the announcement, it's suddenly become a major flashpoint. It'd be more sympathetic if what MisterD said wasn't so obviously true - if you could ask folks a year ago what they believe it is that makes La Salle so valuable, I also can't imagine "art collection/museum" makes many lists.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Apr 19, 2018 15:22:28 GMT -5
This is the same type of thinking that allowed Bro McGinniss to hang out well past his term.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Apr 19, 2018 15:46:45 GMT -5
Its more or less how I could go into my oldest's stuffed animal bin, dig all the way to the bottom for something that has literally never been played with, and if I suggest donating it it would be an absolute tragedy. Or, more accurately, selling the aforementioned stuffed animal on eBay to buy something nice for yourself.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Apr 19, 2018 15:54:21 GMT -5
Its more or less how I could go into my oldest's stuffed animal bin, dig all the way to the bottom for something that has literally never been played with, and if I suggest donating it it would be an absolute tragedy. Or, more accurately, selling the aforementioned stuffed animal on eBay to buy things prospective children actually want. FIFY
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Apr 19, 2018 15:56:12 GMT -5
well played
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Apr 19, 2018 16:01:35 GMT -5
Ain't no more prospective children.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Apr 19, 2018 16:07:52 GMT -5
Ain't no more prospective children. Ditto, but I didn’t want to confuse this any further.
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Post by ltrain38 on Apr 19, 2018 16:32:04 GMT -5
I didn't consider any obligation to engage seriously with an argument that began with "just sayin'." But if I must...
The fact that you didn't feel like the Art Museum was used much by you or people you knew, other than an occasional class does not mean that other people and classes weren't using it more frequently. Within the Honors Program, we used it a lot. What's more, people naturally rally around a thing they value when it appears to be threatened. The absence of visible boosters of a museum before that does not imply that people weren't using it. I don't teach at La Salle, but I use art museum resources to teach history all the time and would absolutely have used the collection at La Salle if I had been there. The whole "my children's old toys" argument hinges on the idea that no one uses the collections for teaching or faculty and undergraduate research, which is plainly not true.
Finally, at no point did I say "stop this at all costs." What I did say, is that even if the sale is necessary, it harms the academic reputation of the university and if it's among the first things a student with interests in something other than applied jobs skills can find about the institution in the news, that student will assume it's not worth applying, because it will suggest a lack of seriousness about arts and humanities. There have been positive steps taken to deal with root causes of the budget deficit - especially adjusting tuition to reverse falling enrollment. That was essential. Clearly more money needed to be made up in the short term. But pretending that there is no negative cost to the school's reputation is purely wishful thinking. There were no go options; if you think this is the least bad one, fine. But to say there's no downside is dishonest.
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Post by belfieldhappyhour on Apr 19, 2018 16:42:32 GMT -5
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Post by ltrain38 on Apr 19, 2018 16:43:36 GMT -5
I think everyone here understands that things like athletics have knock-on effects on enrollment. Admittedly, this is far less visible, but negative news stories about deacquisitioning of art collections and backlash from faculty and respected national and international museum consortia can also, even if on a smaller scale. We get that right? We understand that perspective faculty members might choose not to take positions at La Salle or apply for them over things like this, right? In addition to the classroom costs, these are really losses to quality and number of people we can attract to the university.
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Post by durenduren on Apr 19, 2018 16:58:15 GMT -5
I get it all, and I know you already acknowledged this so I'm not singling you out, but it's easy to sit here and critique the decision, but not one person has offered up an alternative.
On a somewhat unrelated note, I don't think prospective students care so much about this as they do about Kylie Jenner's new hair style. And I think La Salle has taken enough progressive moves that this will not overshadow those.
From what I'm hearing, enrollment is looking higher than last, so it can't be too damaging.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Apr 19, 2018 17:04:03 GMT -5
We understand that perspective faculty members might choose not to take positions at La Salle or apply for them over things like this, right? This falls behind priorities that include both a better library and a usable student gym.
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Post by durenduren on Apr 19, 2018 17:14:47 GMT -5
We understand that perspective faculty members might choose not to take positions at La Salle or apply for them over things like this, right? This falls behind priorities that include both a better library and a usable student gym. And improvements to the DAC, I mean Gola... But a justifiable art sale and a far healthier and stable university is more attractive than "you'll have no budget but we've got art." It's a gamble I'm willing to take.
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Post by ltrain38 on Apr 19, 2018 17:24:42 GMT -5
The specific alternative solutions that come to mind are less La Salle specific and more about radically changing the structure of and cultural attitudes toward universities in the US as a whole, which is far too big a question to take on here or to fix the budget now. Short of pouring over the budget - which given that I'm trying to finish my dissertation by August, I probably won't do - I don't have a specific solution.
I'll be honest. I read a bunch of comments that seemed dismissive of the counterargument to the sale and treating this like a triumph. To me, at best, it's a necessary evil.
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Post by SICguy84 on Apr 19, 2018 17:34:22 GMT -5
So again I ask: Was this all worth it?
They will raid the basement halls of Olney again in the future . . .
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Post by ltrain38 on Apr 19, 2018 17:42:12 GMT -5
That is another real concern. This feels like a stop-gap rather than a solution. Is the assumption that rising enrollments will make this unnecessary again in the future. If that doesn't work, presumably we need to sell something else.
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Post by durenduren on Apr 19, 2018 17:59:08 GMT -5
I'll be honest. I read a bunch of comments that seemed dismissive of the counterargument to the sale and treating this like a triumph. To me, at best, it's a necessary evil. I sincerely believe this is the position of the administration too. I know this is an emotional topic for many, but I don't think anyone wanted to be in a position to have to make this decision.
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