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Post by olneyave on Jan 3, 2018 22:06:57 GMT -5
I always wondered what the heck a school with endowment troubles was doing funding protection of an art collection at a school with no Art program. Unless it was endowed specifically by an alum... I’m sure they tried and clearly had no takers... selling it off is the correct and only move. Put it in a real museum where it can be cared for properly.
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Jan 3, 2018 22:15:19 GMT -5
I've been to the La Salle art museum once, and I think it was by accident. But I do appreciate the history behind it, and I think that this could be a terrible decision, if this is a one time cash hemorrhage, and we are going to face the same deficits next year, and the following year.
I do not think that selling off art compromises our school at all, as a Catholic University. Not a little bit. Our history? Yes. A shitty, short sighted decision? Yes. Becoming a secular university? No. Without being privy to inside financial information, I have no idea how dire things are right now. $7 million is a big amount of money for La Salle. Again, if this is a cash hemorrhage, and the $7 million is just a stop gap patching holes, it's not a smart decision. The alternative is raising tuition, and I don't see that as helping our school out, being that we just ran a huge marketing campaign about lowering tuition.
The housing bubble became the higher education bubble. If we have to sell paintings to remain viable, so be it. I don't like it, but I would like my daughter to look at La Salle as a possible college in 17 years.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 1:05:18 GMT -5
Article #2 on the matter has been published by the Inquirer: 'I feel as though the place has been raped': Criticism of La Salle art sale mounts. At the very least, this could have been handled better. It's now also been covered by WHYY and some little podunk newspaper called... oh wait... The New York Times. The university is now in damage control mode, and in WHYY's coverage university spokesman Janie Lucas was hilariously defensive. Neither the NYT piece nor the one in the Inquirer covered the fact that some of the funds will go to the "De La Salle Center of Innovation in Teaching," which is apparently an honors program initiative, because again, La Salle screwed up on just about every front it could have. Here's the relevant spokesman quote for comedic effect: These are not statements universities have to make when they have their shit together. To summarize: $5m+ for the honors program, plus some free publicity except it only reminded everyone that La Salle has had financial problems, even though this initiative apparently in no way actually signals financial problems for the university in 2018, and because La Salle's PR is second in quality only to Best Korea's, they didn't even give her a cue to say "no, the university is not having financial problems" when that question in this context was more obvious in coming than the sunrise. What a mess. Still waiting on that capital campaign. I was using the emptiness and the ugliness of modern secular culture to illustrate what La Salle would be embracing if it turned further away from Catholicism. These things don't happen in a vacuum, and they don't happen overnight. An inch here, an inch there, and suddenly someone's rewritten the Apostle's Creed. This isn't even hypothetical in the University's context. A quick glance through the spring's religion courses finds 22 of the 37 ostensibly completely unrelated to Catholicism and Christianity. Selling works of art has nothing to do with the University's stance on its' Christian morality and roots. This is interpreting a tough financial decision into something it isn't. And without delving into a religious debate too much, a well-rounded Christian should have the ability to learn and respect other religions into today's global society where borders matter less and less, where we are connected more and more regardless of religion. I think we're more on mission than many of our peers, and I don't think the course load supports us abandoning that mission. I'm not sure my opinion will be considered by you, though. It sounds like any change will be interpreted as an attack on that foundation you experienced. Adapt and survive? Selling works of art indicates that the university no longer has a use for the items being sold. Art, music, literature and broader cultural works in general signal the kind of values we hope to cultivate. That the best selling non-religious book in history is Fifty Shades of Gray and that the television shows which dominate in this Golden Age of Television are populated by anti-heroes and moral ambiguity is no accident. It is a reflection. In a vacuum, selling these paintings is a shortsighted financial move, and blame lay with the university for not adequately leveraging the value of that art, rather than the value of the art to the university. Outside of that vacuum, the symbolism is breathtakingly depressing, as is the abandonment of things approximating true beauty. In light of the stuff I wrote above about the WHYY article, I hold fast in the belief that this benefits no one, considering that the university curriculum's relationship with Catholicism is lax to the point that an individual can spend four years without taking a course engaging them in the Church. To expand on what I mean by the communication of values, consider that at least three of the pieces that will be leaving La Salle venerate the family. Behold the modern secular equivalents, versions one, two and three. I do not want my children to grow up in a world where a broken family is the norm, and yet here we are. The rest of what you said dovetails on that theme, and for the sanity of everyone here I'm going to agree to disagree on the value of being a citizen of the world versus being a faithful Christian.
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Jan 4, 2018 8:28:57 GMT -5
Article #2 on the matter has been published by the Inquirer: 'I feel as though the place has been raped': Criticism of La Salle art sale mounts. At the very least, this could have been handled better. It's now also been covered by WHYY and some little podunk newspaper called... oh wait... The New York Times. The university is now in damage control mode, and in WHYY's coverage university spokesman Janie Lucas was hilariously defensive. Neither the NYT piece nor the one in the Inquirer covered the fact that some of the funds will go to the "De La Salle Center of Innovation in Teaching," which is apparently an honors program initiative, because again, La Salle screwed up on just about every front it could have. Here's the relevant spokesman quote for comedic effect: These are not statements universities have to make when they have their shit together. To summarize: $5m+ for the honors program, plus some free publicity except it only reminded everyone that La Salle has had financial problems, even though this initiative apparently in no way actually signals financial problems for the university in 2018, and because La Salle's PR is second in quality only to Best Korea's, they didn't even give her a cue to say "no, the university is not having financial problems" when that question in this context was more obvious in coming than the sunrise. What a mess. Still waiting on that capital campaign. Selling works of art has nothing to do with the University's stance on its' Christian morality and roots. This is interpreting a tough financial decision into something it isn't. And without delving into a religious debate too much, a well-rounded Christian should have the ability to learn and respect other religions into today's global society where borders matter less and less, where we are connected more and more regardless of religion. I think we're more on mission than many of our peers, and I don't think the course load supports us abandoning that mission. I'm not sure my opinion will be considered by you, though. It sounds like any change will be interpreted as an attack on that foundation you experienced. Adapt and survive? Selling works of art indicates that the university no longer has a use for the items being sold. Art, music, literature and broader cultural works in general signal the kind of values we hope to cultivate. That the best selling non-religious book in history is Fifty Shades of Gray and that the television shows which dominate in this Golden Age of Television are populated by anti-heroes and moral ambiguity is no accident. It is a reflection. In a vacuum, selling these paintings is a shortsighted financial move, and blame lay with the university for not adequately leveraging the value of that art, rather than the value of the art to the university. Outside of that vacuum, the symbolism is breathtakingly depressing, as is the abandonment of things approximating true beauty. In light of the stuff I wrote above about the WHYY article, I hold fast in the belief that this benefits no one, considering that the university curriculum's relationship with Catholicism is lax to the point that an individual can spend four years without taking a course engaging them in the Church. To expand on what I mean by the communication of values, consider that at least three of the pieces that will be leaving La Salle venerate the family. Behold the modern secular equivalents, versions one, two and three. I do not want my children to grow up in a world where a broken family is the norm, and yet here we are. The rest of what you said dovetails on that theme, and for the sanity of everyone here I'm going to agree to disagree on the value of being a citizen of the world versus being a faithful Christian. How do you propose the University drum up $5-7 million?
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Post by durenduren on Jan 4, 2018 8:43:30 GMT -5
Comparing this to rape is stupid and definitely not over-dramatic. La Salle is not an art school, and in times when small, liberal arts institutions must make decisive actions to effectively position themselves for the future, tough decisions will be made. If you cannot support their drive to ensure that this university does have a prosperous future, you might as well hop in your time machine and get a Christian Brother to be our president again. We can't plead ignorance and just imagine things are fine, because that's how we got in this place to begin with. No one wants to sell assets, but it is necessary to fund the core competencies and mission, and some art on a wall isn't going to support that mission alone if we shutter our doors.
A good comment from the Philly.com article: "I would bet large sums of money 99.8% of La Salle grads in the last 30 years could not name one painting hanging in the basement... errr, I mean “unaccredited museum”. .2% knowing might actually be generous. The institution is right not to pay any longer to protect the collection. It is not worth the cost."
And I won't comment any further on the non-secular aspect of the discussion - that water got too deep, too fast.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 4, 2018 9:01:55 GMT -5
tomorrow it will be demolishing of some of the McShain built buildings on the quad you know McShain was torn down in 2016, right?
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Post by SICguy84 on Jan 4, 2018 9:07:53 GMT -5
tomorrow it will be demolishing of some of the McShain built buildings on the quad you know McShain was torn down in 2016, right? Yes. I was referring to the John McShain constructed buildings such as College Hall or Wister. Or I could see this crew advocating to raze truly historic buildings on the Peale estate i.e The President's House/Peale Mansion. Fjord is right this is a PR fumble. These art people are an influential and vocal bunch . . . Disgusted by this all.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 4, 2018 9:18:58 GMT -5
you know McShain was torn down in 2016, right? Yes. I was referring to the John McShain constructed buildings such as College Hall or Wister. Or I could see this crew advocating to raze truly historic buildings on the Peale estate i.e The President's House/Peale Mansion. Fjord is right this is a PR fumble. These art people are an influential and vocal bunch . . . Disgusted by this all. Peale House is now the Alumni House. It is actually going to be turning into a nice space for Alumni to gather on campus. clubs.lasalle.edu/collegian/2017/10/08/alums-find-new-campus-homes-alumni-relations-to-use-historic-peale-house/
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Post by durenduren on Jan 4, 2018 9:23:42 GMT -5
you know McShain was torn down in 2016, right? Yes. I was referring to the John McShain constructed buildings such as College Hall or Wister. Or I could see this crew advocating to raze truly historic buildings on the Peale estate i.e The President's House/Peale Mansion. I think that's being a bit dramatic. This is a discussion about art, the sale of said art, and the financial woes of La Salle, nothing more and nothing less. Not religion, not architecture, not morality or the composition and fabric of our university. I know people are pissed off about any change, and this has provided some convenient support whatever argument someone wants to make, but let's not overthink this. We're a miserable group, but let's remember what this is actually about.
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Post by theneumann64 on Jan 4, 2018 9:38:43 GMT -5
And just to be clear here, if we were selling off art to fund a new basketball arena, I would not be happy about it. I agree there are things that you should not sacrifice in the name of modernization or purely for profit. I just think in this instance, if it helps the University as a whole, specifically the teaching and learning part, it's an avenue that is reasonable to go down.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 4, 2018 9:52:28 GMT -5
And just to be clear here, if we were selling off art to fund a new basketball arena, I would not be happy about it. I agree there are things that you should not sacrifice in the name of modernization or purely for profit. I just think in this instance, if it helps the University as a whole, specifically the teaching and learning part, it's an avenue that is reasonable to go down. Really? The minute we went to an Elite 8 because better facilities gave us better players, most people would say, "What art museum?" I was more upset about the loss of Intermissions and the wings from Peaches than I am about a few pieces of art.
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Jan 4, 2018 10:01:33 GMT -5
And just to be clear here, if we were selling off art to fund a new basketball arena, I would not be happy about it. I agree there are things that you should not sacrifice in the name of modernization or purely for profit. I just think in this instance, if it helps the University as a whole, specifically the teaching and learning part, it's an avenue that is reasonable to go down. Really? The minute we went to an Elite 8 because better facilities gave us better players, most people would say, "What art museum?" I was more upset about the loss of Intermissions and the wings from Peaches than I am about a few pieces of art. Amen
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Post by durenduren on Jan 4, 2018 10:22:07 GMT -5
Really? The minute we went to an Elite 8 because better facilities gave us better players, most people would say, "What art museum?" I was more upset about the loss of Intermissions and the wings from Peaches than I am about a few pieces of art. Amen Seriously. That's something we can all agree on.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Jan 4, 2018 10:45:05 GMT -5
Selling works of art indicates that the university no longer has a use for the items being sold. C'mon, man. That's just so goddamn ridiculous it submarines an argument I totally get (although disagree with). If La Salle could sell all the toilets out of St. Miguel's for $5MM, do you think they'd be like "students are still pooping in those so lets sell this art instead"? Thinking this is a bad decision is fine. Thinking it was a casual or unserious decision is insulting.
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Post by blueandgold on Jan 4, 2018 10:53:59 GMT -5
If only we could put the rare work of art that is Dr. John Giannini's contract extension up for auction... doubt many folks would be upset about that.
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Post by belfieldhappyhour on Jan 4, 2018 10:59:48 GMT -5
My only issue is to what I'll call a dramatic overreaction but the general public. They are not selling ALL of the art, only certain pieces. They are selling 46 items according to the first story.
Yet, the story says this remains .... "The items on display will be replaced with others in the university’s collection, which consists of close to 350 paintings, 65 sculptures, 500 drawings, 3,000 graphic prints, 175 photographs, and a few items of furniture and decorative art, according to its website"
So I think people need to chill out a little on their characterizations of the sale.
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Post by durenduren on Jan 4, 2018 11:04:14 GMT -5
Selling works of art indicates that the university no longer has a use for the items being sold. C'mon, man. That's just so goddamn ridiculous it submarines an argument I totally get (although disagree with). If La Salle could sell all the toilets out of St. Miguel's for $5MM, do you think they'd be like "students are still pooping in those so lets sell this art instead"? I'd buy the crapper that Dunphy dropped a deuce in just so I could mail it to him. Just sayin...
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Post by golasalle on Jan 4, 2018 11:06:58 GMT -5
Yes. I was referring to the John McShain constructed buildings such as College Hall or Wister. Or I could see this crew advocating to raze truly historic buildings on the Peale estate i.e The President's House/Peale Mansion. Fjord is right this is a PR fumble. These art people are an influential and vocal bunch . . . Disgusted by this all. Peale House is now the Alumni House. It is actually going to be turning into a nice space for Alumni to gather on campus. clubs.lasalle.edu/collegian/2017/10/08/alums-find-new-campus-homes-alumni-relations-to-use-historic-peale-house/You shouldn't let facts get in the way of a steaming hot narrative Glitter Bro...
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Jan 4, 2018 13:03:52 GMT -5
Core pedagogical mission. Is an art museum for undergrad students, art history students, art folks, school children from local neighborhoods and others part of the core mission? Are adirondack chairs on the quad a core mission? Is being a member of the Atlantic 10 or even Division I part of the core mission? Some of these things will improve enrollment, others will not.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 13:55:48 GMT -5
My only issue is to what I'll call a dramatic overreaction but the general public. They are not selling ALL of the art, only certain pieces. They are selling 46 items according to the first story. They're selling the items of worth. Ultimately I can't see this as anything other than a fumbled mistake. Even if I accept the financial arguments, all I've heard anyone talk about is the financial health of the university. Furthermore, if the university couldn't in the last six months tap alumni networks and the billions of dollars of business people do within three hours of the Delaware Valley for $5m, there's a bigger problem. And now that they haven't done that, it's going to be harder to do so in 2018 because of the tax code rework. Never misses a chance to miss an opportunity, La Salle.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Jan 4, 2018 14:01:38 GMT -5
Can you sell items without worth?
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 4, 2018 14:11:19 GMT -5
My only issue is to what I'll call a dramatic overreaction but the general public. They are not selling ALL of the art, only certain pieces. They are selling 46 items according to the first story. They're selling the items of worth. Ultimately I can't see this as anything other than a fumbled mistake. Even if I accept the financial arguments, all I've heard anyone talk about is the financial health of the university. Furthermore, if the university couldn't in the last six months tap alumni networks and the billions of dollars of business people do within three hours of the Delaware Valley for $5m, there's a bigger problem. And now that they haven't done that, it's going to be harder to do so in 2018 because of the tax code rework. Never misses a chance to miss an opportunity, La Salle. Curious how much @fjordexplorer donated on an annual basis to the Art Museum based on his reaction, or how he shared his plan to garner donations from the "billions of dollars" available with the Development Office. People with large sums to donate don't just write a check..they want to see a strategic vision and plan. The revenue raised from this will help fund that vision and plan, and hopefully bring in bigger ticket donors. The place is being run more like a business now....it has to in order to survive, and unpopular decisions have to be made at times. Some of these decisions needed to be made years ago and weren't. The turnaround that has been happening in enrollment and in quality of applicant has been amazing, and will continue. Funding programs that drive educational enhancements and differentiation is how a University sustains itself...not because it has some objets d'art hidden in a basement. Having just been on the college applicant circuit last year with my son, I can safely say that whether or not a school had a museum was of zero consequence in deciding where he would spend his next 4 years.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 15:44:22 GMT -5
They're selling the items of worth. Ultimately I can't see this as anything other than a fumbled mistake. Even if I accept the financial arguments, all I've heard anyone talk about is the financial health of the university. Furthermore, if the university couldn't in the last six months tap alumni networks and the billions of dollars of business people do within three hours of the Delaware Valley for $5m, there's a bigger problem. And now that they haven't done that, it's going to be harder to do so in 2018 because of the tax code rework. Never misses a chance to miss an opportunity, La Salle. Curious how much @fjordexplorer donated on an annual basis to the Art Museum based on his reaction, or how he shared his plan to garner donations from the "billions of dollars" available with the Development Office. Is that how that works? I have to buy a share in specific parts of the university to have a right to criticize its direction now? And then I'm generously afforded the opportunity to do the work of people who get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to do that work, but for free? The museum doesn't even charge admission, which would have offset a lot of what's being lost here if not for the fact that the university is yet again operating in "dog ate my homework" mode instead of moving strategically. It is ultimately the victim of a classic strategy wherein assets are neglected and mismanaged, then alleged to be worthless, then destroyed or sold off. They haven't even updated the website since 2015. It's the same crap they pulled with the historic buildings. Apparently everything has to have a dollar value now, any other value being no value at all. Sad.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Jan 4, 2018 15:54:29 GMT -5
Curious how much @fjordexplorer donated on an annual basis to the Art Museum based on his reaction, or how he shared his plan to garner donations from the "billions of dollars" available with the Development Office. The museum doesn't even charge admission, which would have offset a lot of what's being lost here What would you pay to go to La Salle's art museum?
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 4, 2018 16:55:27 GMT -5
The museum doesn't even charge admission, which would have offset a lot of what's being lost here Let's explore that (see what I did there?). Assume they had 500 non-student or faculty visitors per year (probably extremely generous..I'm guessing it's more like 50)...If they are raising $5 M on this sale of fewer than 50 pieces of art, people would need to pay $10K to visit the La Salle Art Museum....making it likely the most expensive art museum on the planet. (With the Philadelphia Art Museum down the road charging $20 a pop to adults and not relegated to a basement). Really? Charge admission to go to the basement of Olney Hall? That's your thesis as to how these pieces could've been saved? Perhaps you could detail this plan in a business case and PowerPoint to the Trustees and I'm sure they will give it the due consideration it deserves. There have been some ridiculous things written on this board...some even by me...but the idea that charging admission to the La Salle Art Museum could've raised $5,000,000 might officially win. They should close up the whole board now, because nothing that abjectly ridiculous will ever be mentioned on here again.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Jan 4, 2018 17:29:55 GMT -5
Oh man. I bet Explorer Steve’s ears are ringing so loud right now people in the same room as him can hear it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 17:36:48 GMT -5
The museum doesn't even charge admission, which would have offset a lot of what's being lost here Let's explore that (see what I did there?). Assume they had 500 non-student or faculty visitors per year (probably extremely generous..I'm guessing it's more like 50)...If they are raising $5 M on this sale of fewer than 50 pieces of art, people would need to pay $10K to visit the La Salle Art Museum....making it likely the most expensive art museum on the planet. (With the Philadelphia Art Museum down the road charging $20 a pop to adults and not relegated to a basement). Really? Charge admission to go to the basement of Olney Hall? That's your thesis as to how these pieces could've been saved? Perhaps you could detail this plan in a business case and PowerPoint to the Trustees and I'm sure they will give it the due consideration it deserves. There have been some ridiculous things written on this board...some even by me...but the idea that charging admission to the La Salle Art Museum could've raised $5,000,000 might officially win. They should close up the whole board now, because nothing that abjectly ridiculous will ever be mentioned on here again. You ignored most of what I wrote to make your point. Again. Those numbers are what they are because the university neglected it out of either incompetence or malice, just like with the basketball team, the other 24 NCAA sports, the religion department, and basically anything that isn't nursing or business. You also forgot that the passage of time exists, and that I specifically stated the university is operating in "dog ate my homework" panic mode. The past 20 years had to happen first for the university to need to raise money at $10k a ticket as quickly as possible. For comparison, Ohio State's Wexner Center for the Arts pulls 200k-250k people a year. La Salle isn't Ohio State, so let's assume they're going to pull 1/5th that. They charge $5, very reasonable, even ten years ago. $5 x 40k x 10 years = $2m. Most of the difference could have been made up by any number of things, the most likely being a travelling exhibition of key works that would have also served as a way for alumni to connect with the university and an opportunity for the university to introduce itself to new people, including prospective students from further afield than the Delaware Valley, which the university desperately needs. Also an area for making up the difference: Donations at the end of the tax year, but nah that's not for La Salle let's just leave this hush hush until the close of the tax year even though there's this big juicy carrot. Also an avenue: Estate planning. Something tells me La Salle still doesn't know who half its baby boomer alumni are though. Look, if you don't like art or can't see the value in it then I can't help you. There's value in these works, and even if you don't agree on that there's undeniably value in not embarrassing the university on a regional and national level. Let's not pretend the university didn't have other options, and that this "tough choice" wasn't fumbled in a completely avoidable way.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 4, 2018 17:47:12 GMT -5
For comparison, Ohio State's Wexner Center for the Arts pulls 200k-250k people a year. La Salle isn't Ohio State, so let's assume they're going to pull 1/5th that. I was wrong....it was possible to get more ridiculous. "La Salle isn't Ohio State." Also, for comparison, Philadelphia isn't Columbus. Not sure if you've been there, but there's really nothing else...the city revolves around the University. There is zero chance people would 40,000 to 50,000 people per year would visit the Olney Basement when they could go to the Philadelphia Art Museum, Penn's Museums, or one of the dozens of other museums in the city.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 18:03:22 GMT -5
For comparison, Ohio State's Wexner Center for the Arts pulls 200k-250k people a year. La Salle isn't Ohio State, so let's assume they're going to pull 1/5th that. I was wrong....it was possible to get more ridiculous. "La Salle isn't Ohio State." Also, for comparison, Philadelphia isn't Columbus. Not sure if you've been there, but there's really nothing else...the city revolves around the University. There is zero chance people would 40,000 to 50,000 people per year would visit the Olney Basement when they could go to the Philadelphia Art Museum, Penn's Museums, or one of the dozens of other museums in the city. I wasn't aware the University of Pennsylvania had a permanent exhibit geared towards Catholicism and its themes. That's probably because they don't, but again, you're ignoring 90% of what I'm saying. If you didn't, you'd address the fact that large portions of the university are left to fend for themselves, which should be a cause for concern because there ought to be a value higher than the dollar, especially at a Catholic university. Of course, you didn't address any of that because it's easier to take potshots at a unit of the university engineered to have no constituency than to admit mistakes were made even though I've pointed them out repeatedly. Obviously I can't speak for the rest of the alumni, but if this is all a view widely held then the university will die, and deserves to die. The Catholic theme park model, where the university wears the cross as nothing more than a token gesture, puts the university on par with West Chester, and West Chester is at that point a far better value-for-money proposition. It's also a worse proposition for the salvation of souls and all the other things that should be cultivated at a Catholic university, but the salvation of souls is not a profitable endeavor.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Jan 4, 2018 18:12:29 GMT -5
Those numbers are what they are because the university neglected it out of either incompetence or malice, just like with the basketball team, the other 24 NCAA sports, the religion department, and basically anything that isn't nursing or business. You also forgot that the passage of time exists, and that I specifically stated the university is operating in "dog ate my homework" panic mode. The past 20 years had to happen first for the university to need to raise money at $10k a ticket as quickly as possible. Shouldn't this paragraph lead to an understanding and acceptance, albeit reluctant, of why this is being done and not why its a horrific decision? (And seriously, how is charging admission to a basement museum in North Philadelphia when (1) we can't sell out high mid-major basketball games and (2) a top 10 national art museum exists in center city even a proposal?)
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