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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2017 15:46:21 GMT -5
Hmmm, that still feels to me like "keeping this secret because of NCAA bylaws" rather than "keeping this secret even if the transactions were legal". Maybe semantics at this point. I realized halfway through someone should really draw a chart for all of the ways this cuts. Something like this: There's charges for taking bribes, giving bribes, soliciting bribes, concealing bribes, not-quite-racketeering, wire fraud, and honest services fraud among other things. I don't blame anyone for not being able to keep that straight, but I can assure you that it breaks federal law, and even if the transactions were legal and not against NCAA bylaws, the honest services fraud count would at the very least stick (and probably the semi-racketeering one too as a result). Whether or not the evidence supports the charges remains to be seen. Also, there's absolutely no way this remains contained to the people already charged or mentioned. This is definitely the next point shaving scandal in scope and impact. Oh hey, the chart exists (kind of):
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Sept 27, 2017 16:00:18 GMT -5
But would he have had to conceal his services if it weren't NCAA illegal? That's where I get hung up here, was any singular act done because US law needed to be circumvented or was everything created by needed to sidestep NCAA bylaw which then ran afoul of US law? Like if NCAA were uncapped and athletes paid, students could get $100K to come, asst coaches could lobby on behalf of agents or shoe companies as paid contractors ... none of that *has* to be illegal.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2017 16:02:31 GMT -5
Was any singular act done because US law needed to be circumvented Honest services fraud at the very least. I go back to the FIFA thing as an analogue... in that instance, no one had to act the way they did unless they wanted to defraud / leverage FIFA to enrich themselves. They did, and committed honest services fraud in the process. Also arguably the bribery count, but only because the way they did it was illegal. Finder's fees are legal, obviously, but you can't pay someone to undertake a specific course of action in the manner that they did and in the context that they did. You could make the NCAA pay players tomorrow, but if they still did what they did (and considering it happens in much more lucrative and open sports, it probably would have) they'd still be indicted.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Sept 27, 2017 18:15:30 GMT -5
Maybe I'm not making my side clear here. NBA players are steered to agents and to sneaker companies legally all the time. Without NCAA regulations and with coaches getting disclosed commissions rather than secret kickbacks, everything feels legal. In the hypothetical, FIFA wouldn't apply as a non-profit with kickbacks and bribes and actual united parties.
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Post by durenduren on Sept 27, 2017 18:23:36 GMT -5
In a way, I agree... but I'm okay with it if this is what it takes to 'actually' punish this activity. I mean, outside of the fines, the NCAA walked backwards from pretty much every athletic sanction on Penn State, and no one debated what happened there (unless you've got that closet shrine to JoePa).
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Sept 27, 2017 18:27:42 GMT -5
(Stop at any time by just saying "this is tedious".)
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Sept 27, 2017 18:28:29 GMT -5
(Also, that was supposed to be injured parties, not united parties.)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2017 20:39:14 GMT -5
Maybe I'm not making my side clear here. NBA players are steered to agents and to sneaker companies legally all the time. Without NCAA regulations and with coaches getting disclosed commissions rather than secret kickbacks, everything feels legal. In the hypothetical, FIFA wouldn't apply as a non-profit with kickbacks and bribes and actual united parties. Basically you can have that relationship, but you can't be dishonest about the nature of that relationship. Think of it this way: If I walk over to a car dealership, I can reasonably expect that someone will try to sell me a car and that the salesman will gain financially by doing so. Therefore, there's no crime committed because everything's more or less laid out. No one expects college basketball coaches to be shills for specific shoe companies, and they wouldn't disclose it if they were because of NCAA bylaws. The quid pro quo would be implied. The assistant coaches in question took kickbacks from the shoe shills to steer business, which you can't do under the statute I mentioned earlier. Even if they were open about it, the part about not being able to do it as a beneficiary of federal largess would apply. Like I said, this happens across disciplines. If you're confused about the underlying principles, consider it a distortion of the market and a violation of the public trust. It's generally held to be illegal to use federal offices as leverage for personal enrichment, and the statute cited extends that to any positions which benefit from federal largess. There's probably also some underlying corruption of amateurism / laws concerning agents & representation issues too, but I'm completely ignorant of the relevant statutes (which exist primarily at the state level).
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Post by luhoopsfan on Sept 27, 2017 21:25:35 GMT -5
(This makes my head hurt)
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Sept 27, 2017 21:51:32 GMT -5
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Sept 27, 2017 22:30:27 GMT -5
Fjord, I think we're in the same place? What happened wasn't legal but not because what happened couldn't have been legal? It's not like Baylor or PSU or anything like that where it's a binary wrong, it just was wrong under the circumstances that existed?
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Post by weston2 on Sept 27, 2017 22:40:15 GMT -5
Fjord, I think we're in the same place? What happened wasn't legal but not because what happened couldn't have been legal? It's not like Baylor or PSU or anything like that where it's a binary wrong, it just was wrong under the circumstances that existed? Huh? Lets just create a pool of money for player acquisition. Sliding scale, pay the posse, parents, handlers, guardians, AAU guys..........wow, that's another story. Hey, even give 'em a 1099!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2017 22:40:18 GMT -5
Fjord, I think we're in the same place? What happened wasn't legal but not because what happened couldn't have been legal? It's not like Baylor or PSU or anything like that where it's a binary wrong, it just was wrong under the circumstances that existed? More or less. If the NCAA wasn't so invested in amateurism, what happened in this instance still largely would have been a crime and arguably still would have happened. It's mostly about the way they went about it, as well as the part about concealing payments. Who knows if this actually had authorization higher up the Adidas food chain, but everything was structured to make it appear like Adidas had nothing to do with it. I think that's where the wire fraud stuff comes in. The wire fraud stuff involves players being ineligible as a result of all this. Some of that won't hold up because the schools haven't played them yet, I believe. More specifically, even if the NCAA allowed payments to players, paying coaches to steer players in this manner as Chuck Person did, especially at a university receiving federal funds, is still pretty illegal. I should also stress that I'm reading this as I go, but I'm still not a lawyer and there's something like 30 counts between the three indictment that make up the scandal. I'm almost certainly getting some of it wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2017 13:38:39 GMT -5
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behoops
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Post by behoops on Oct 2, 2017 23:52:29 GMT -5
There maybe as many as 15 frosh who will be ruled ineligible this year
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Post by gymrat67 on Oct 14, 2017 16:44:15 GMT -5
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Post by glorydays on Oct 14, 2017 19:46:30 GMT -5
Pitino needs Senator Geary to step up!
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Post by calsufan on Oct 14, 2017 19:50:46 GMT -5
I especially love this little gem in the article from the NCAA president..."We need to do right by student-athletes," NCAA president Mark Emmert said in a statement. "I believe we can — and we must — find a way to protect the integrity of college sports by addressing both sides of the coin: fairness and opportunity for college athletes..." This from the same NCAA that just the other day let North Carolina off scot free. I wonder if anyone taped Emmert giggling when he made that statement?
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Post by gymrat67 on Feb 16, 2018 16:41:20 GMT -5
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Post by durenduren on Feb 16, 2018 17:30:04 GMT -5
Just for shits and giggles, what if Giannini has been cheating and we're still this bad... I'll laugh so hard and then go straight to the bar. But seriously, I love this. I want to watch everyone squirm.
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Post by blueandgold on Feb 16, 2018 19:00:35 GMT -5
Just for shits and giggles, what if Giannini has been cheating and we're still this bad... I'll laugh so hard and then go straight to the bar. But seriously, I love this. I want to watch everyone squirm. I’m torn about whether I’d want to see the other Big 5 teams (less Penn) go down. I’m usually against them, but I don’t know.. might be nice if Big 5 goes unscathed in this.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Feb 16, 2018 20:13:59 GMT -5
Just for shits and giggles, what if Giannini has been cheating and we're still this bad... I'll laugh so hard and then go straight to the bar. But seriously, I love this. I want to watch everyone squirm. I’m torn about whether I’d want to see the other Big 5 teams (less Penn) go down. I’m usually against them, but I don’t know.. might be nice if Big 5 goes unscathed in this. Nothing would make me happier then to see Jay revealed as a serial rule breaker.
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Post by talkinbball on Feb 17, 2018 10:16:21 GMT -5
Hopefully, with the FBI involvement this may lead to some actual sanctions, penalties, etc. The NCAA investigation of North Carolina turned out to be a joke.
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gjc576
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Post by gjc576 on Feb 17, 2018 10:57:41 GMT -5
I’m torn about whether I’d want to see the other Big 5 teams (less Penn) go down. I’m usually against them, but I don’t know.. might be nice if Big 5 goes unscathed in this. Nothing would make me happier then to see Jay revealed as a serial rule breaker. Hopefully you are kidding? If not, why?
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Feb 17, 2018 11:05:36 GMT -5
Nothing would make me happier then to see Jay revealed as a serial rule breaker. Hopefully you are kidding? If not, why? Because I really dislike Villanova.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Feb 17, 2018 11:39:11 GMT -5
Hell yeah.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Feb 17, 2018 11:47:43 GMT -5
Because I really dislike Villanova. Hate has no home here
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Post by gymrat67 on Feb 17, 2018 12:47:58 GMT -5
I’m torn about whether I’d want to see the other Big 5 teams (less Penn) go down. I’m usually against them, but I don’t know.. might be nice if Big 5 goes unscathed in this. Nothing would make me happier then to see Jay revealed as a serial rule breaker.
Not very Lasallian Joe ... more Magis-ian.
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Post by lasalle89 on Feb 17, 2018 13:29:48 GMT -5
G may not be the best coach but I am sure he is above board when it comes to ethics and rules. I think all of the Big 5 will come out clean. Nova is playing with fire bringing in players attached to this scandal. When you lie down with dogs... you get fleas..
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Post by weston2 on Feb 17, 2018 14:48:41 GMT -5
I just want to know how marginal to questionable college athletes all of a sudden become scholars and graduate in 4 years? and on the honor roll? and with the "supposed" time commitment? Huh? How much resources are afforded to that.
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