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Post by 23won on Mar 22, 2019 6:55:58 GMT -5
Perhaps ... but the #s tell a different story.
Christian had a .515 record in 7 years at low mid majors. His team lost by 42 to St Bonnie last year. The move from Mt St Mary to Siena is not really a power jump and he had the same .515 record. Not really playing an incredibly tough OOC schedule either. Based on that I see him struggling in the jump to the A10. If he has success it likely would be in year 4 or 5, just in time to move to a bigger name school.
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Post by MisterD on Mar 22, 2019 7:15:25 GMT -5
I’d love to see (1) how many teams improved by more than 9 games this year and (2) how many first year coaches have done that over the last decade.
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Post by hoopsguest on Mar 22, 2019 7:44:04 GMT -5
Perhaps ... but the #s tell a different story. Christian had a .515 record in 7 years at low mid majors. His team lost by 42 to St Bonnie last year. The move from Mt St Mary to Siena is not really a power jump and he had the same .515 record. Not really playing an incredibly tough OOC schedule either. Based on that I see him struggling in the jump to the A10. If he has success it likely would be in year 4 or 5, just in time to move to a bigger name school. What was his conference record at MSM? That was a train wreck too when he took over too. Secondly an early blowout loss to SBU means nothing as he was getting his style installed. 3rd, the jump from MSM to Siena is HUGE in regards to salary for him AND his staff, plus resources. It will only take him 3 years MAX to have GW dancing or close to it.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 22, 2019 7:45:49 GMT -5
I’d love to see (1) how many teams improved by more than 9 games this year and (2) how many first year coaches have done that over the last decade. If only this information was publicly available in some electronic format that one could search.....
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Mar 22, 2019 8:21:41 GMT -5
Doubtful a guy with his roots in the area wants to move, and he's made bank over the years at St. Joe's. I could see him taking on a high school coaching gig and crushing it. I think he wants to get out of the area and get right back in the fire, at least, that is what I gathered from the articles that I read.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Mar 22, 2019 8:30:52 GMT -5
I’d love to see (1) how many teams improved by more than 9 games this year and (2) how many first year coaches have done that over the last decade. If only this information was publicly available in some electronic format that one could search..... Intern is off today so I appreciate you picking this up for me.
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Post by blueandgold on Mar 22, 2019 8:39:01 GMT -5
And Jamion Christian just went to GW. Boy extremely quick pull here by GW.. I'm just glad they didn't run and grab Martelli.
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Post by 23won on Mar 22, 2019 8:52:50 GMT -5
Martelli isn’t PC enough for GW
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Post by MisterD on Mar 22, 2019 8:55:54 GMT -5
Here's what I get for the 56(?) coaching changes from 2017-18 to 2018-19 (subject to mistakes from both the various excel table joins and general apathy) ...
School (New Coach): +/- (2018 wins) Utah State (Craig Smith): +11 (17) Pepperdine (Lorenzo Romar): +10 (6) Longwood (Griff Aldrich): +9 (7) Siena (Jamion Christian): +9 (8) LSU (Tony Benford): +9 (18) Ole Miss (Kermit Davis): +8 (12) Bryant (Jared Grasso): +7 (3) Cal State Northridge (Mark Gottfried): +7 (6) Drake (Darian DeVries): +7 (17) Marist (John Dunne): +6 (6) Pitt (Jeff Capel*): +6 (8) Texas Southern (Johnny Jones): +6 (16) Florida Atlantic (Dusty May): +5 (12) Florida International (Jeremy Ballard): +5 (14) Little Rock (Darrell Walker): +3 (7) Detroit (Mike Davis): +3 (8) South Alabama (Richie Riley): +3 (14) Alabama A&M (Dylan Howard): +2 (3) Delaware State (Keith Walker): +2 (4) Charlotte (Ron Sanchez): +2 (6) Loyola (MD) (Tavaras Hardy): +2 (9) Eastern Kentucky (A.W. Hamilton): +2 (11) High Point (Tubby Smith): +2 (14) UConn (Dan Hurley): +2 (14) Fresno State (Justin Hutson): +2 (21) UC-Riverside (David Patrick): +1 (9) Colorado State (Niko Medved): +1 (11) San Diego (Sam Scholl): +1 (20) Memphis (Anfernee Hardaway): +1 (21) Chicago State (Morris Scott): 0 (3) Maryland-Eastern Shore (Clifford Reed): 0 (7) East Carolina (Joe Dooley): 0 (10) Maine (Richard Barron): -1 (6) Incarnate Word (Carson Cunningham): -1 (7) USC Upstate (Dave Dickerson): -1 (7) Missouri State (Dana Ford): -2 (18) Louisville (Chris Mack): -2 (22) UTEP (Rodney Terry): -3 (11) McNeese State (Heath Schroyer): -3 (12) La Salle (Ashley Howard): -3 (13) St. Peter's (Shaheen Holloway): -4 (14) Texas-Arlington (Chris Ogden): -4 (21) UCLA (Murry Bartow): -4 (21) Western Carolina (Mark Prosser): -6 (13) Tennessee State (Brian Collins): -6 (15) Evansville (Walter McCarty): -6 (17) Georgia (Tom Crean): -7 (18) Nicholls State (Austin Claunch): -7 (21) Southern (Sean Woods): -8 (15) Rhode Island (David Cox): -8 (26) Mount St. Mary's (Dan Engelstad): -9 (18) Florida Gulf Coast (Michael Fly): -9 (23) Xavier (Travis Steele): -10 (29) South Dakota (Todd Lee): -13 (26) Middle Tennessee (Nick McDevitt): -14 (25) UNC Asheville (Mike Morell): -17 (21)
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Post by 23won on Mar 22, 2019 9:08:09 GMT -5
Does anyone remember the Bo Diddley scene from Trading places. If you do I will channel Bo’s sentiment by saying
In Philly .515 for one year, .515 for 6 years, and .515 for seven years is still .515.
The plus 9 could be meaningless if (1) the old coach stunk or lost his players, (2) Siena returned good players but the rest of the teams lost good players.
It’s an apples and oranges comparison. The 7 year numbers don’t lie.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 22, 2019 9:15:36 GMT -5
Here's what I get for the 56(?) coaching changes from 2017-18 to 2018-19 (subject to mistakes from both the various excel table joins and general apathy) ... School (New Coach): +/- (2018 wins)Utah State (Craig Smith): +11 (17) Pepperdine (Lorenzo Romar): +10 (6) Longwood (Griff Aldrich): +9 (7) Siena (Jamion Christian): +9 (8) LSU (Tony Benford): +9 (18) Ole Miss (Kermit Davis): +8 (12) Bryant (Jared Grasso): +7 (3) Cal State Northridge (Mark Gottfried): +7 (6) Drake (Darian DeVries): +7 (17) Marist (John Dunne): +6 (6) Pitt (Jeff Capel*): +6 (8) Texas Southern (Johnny Jones): +6 (16) Florida Atlantic (Dusty May): +5 (12) Florida International (Jeremy Ballard): +5 (14) Little Rock (Darrell Walker): +3 (7) Detroit (Mike Davis): +3 (8) South Alabama (Richie Riley): +3 (14) Alabama A&M (Dylan Howard): +2 (3) Delaware State (Keith Walker): +2 (4) Charlotte (Ron Sanchez): +2 (6) Loyola (MD) (Tavaras Hardy): +2 (9) Eastern Kentucky (A.W. Hamilton): +2 (11) High Point (Tubby Smith): +2 (14) UConn (Dan Hurley): +2 (14) Fresno State (Justin Hutson): +2 (21) UC-Riverside (David Patrick): +1 (9) Colorado State (Niko Medved): +1 (11) San Diego (Sam Scholl): +1 (20) Memphis (Anfernee Hardaway): +1 (21) Chicago State (Morris Scott): 0 (3) Maryland-Eastern Shore (Clifford Reed): 0 (7) East Carolina (Joe Dooley): 0 (10) Maine (Richard Barron): -1 (6) Incarnate Word (Carson Cunningham): -1 (7) USC Upstate (Dave Dickerson): -1 (7) Missouri State (Dana Ford): -2 (18) Louisville (Chris Mack): -2 (22) UTEP (Rodney Terry): -3 (11) McNeese State (Heath Schroyer): -3 (12) La Salle (Ashley Howard): -3 (13) St. Peter's (Shaheen Holloway): -4 (14) Texas-Arlington (Chris Ogden): -4 (21) UCLA (Murry Bartow): -4 (21) Western Carolina (Mark Prosser): -6 (13) Tennessee State (Brian Collins): -6 (15) Evansville (Walter McCarty): -6 (17) Georgia (Tom Crean): -7 (18) Nicholls State (Austin Claunch): -7 (21) Southern (Sean Woods): -8 (15) Rhode Island (David Cox): -8 (26) Mount St. Mary's (Dan Engelstad): -9 (18) Florida Gulf Coast (Michael Fly): -9 (23) Xavier (Travis Steele): -10 (29) South Dakota (Todd Lee): -13 (26) Middle Tennessee (Nick McDevitt): -14 (25) UNC Asheville (Mike Morell): -17 (21) NPOA by your intern
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Post by MisterD on Mar 22, 2019 9:19:49 GMT -5
The plus 9 could be meaningless if (1) the old coach stunk or lost his players, (2) Siena returned good players but the rest of the teams lost good players. Sure. +9 in a 1st year could also be unimpressive if you make a no-research comment and are now too dug in to reverse course and just admit that. Lots of possibilities.
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Post by 23won on Mar 22, 2019 9:35:52 GMT -5
Not dug in. Just relying more on 7 year trends that show a consistent record than an apples to oranges comparison. How many .515 MAAC level coaches have moved up to the A10 and gone dancing quickly? The MAAC and A10 are pretty different.
If you think he’s special, explain why. I actually don’t have a dog in the fight but you may.
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Post by durenduren on Mar 22, 2019 9:38:15 GMT -5
So at what point is Phil taking this 'woe is me' thing too far? Because while it's obviously raw and understandable, some of these lines are starting to get an overly-dramatic aurora. From WIP with Angelo today:
"It's a balm, a soothing balm, on a wound that I'm afraid, Angelo, will never heal," Martelli said. "I am overwhelmed and if I was to live and at any point in time people thought I was to live or — what it's felt like Angelo is, I've attended my own funeral."
"It cut out of my heart. It irreparably harmed my family..."
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Post by 23won on Mar 22, 2019 9:40:41 GMT -5
I could see two possible Martelli landing spots
SJU hires Inglesby. Delaware hires Phil. No need to move.
Second one, less likely but would make a lot of sense for the school would be for Fordham to hire Phil. The school has been a doormat. He can recruit and coach and he knows the A10 schools really well. Don’t know the politics of Fordham but getting a guy who wins for 34 years at a Jesuit school and graduates players would be at the top of my list as an AD there. Having him beat SJU and infuriate the posters on their board who wanted him out and/or Fordham out of the A10 would be a lot of fun to watch.
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Post by a10champion15 on Mar 22, 2019 10:14:42 GMT -5
So at what point is Phil taking this 'woe is me' thing too far? Because while it's obviously raw and understandable, some of these lines are starting to get an overly-dramatic aurora. From WIP with Angelo today: "It's a balm, a soothing balm, on a wound that I'm afraid, Angelo, will never heal," Martelli said. "I am overwhelmed and if I was to live and at any point in time people thought I was to live or — what it's felt like Angelo is, I've attended my own funeral." "It cut out of my heart. It irreparably harmed my family..." It's been what 3/4 days after a 34 year tenure?
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 22, 2019 10:14:54 GMT -5
So at what point is Phil taking this 'woe is me' thing too far? "It cut out of my heart. It irreparably harmed my family..." Talked to a ton of Philly basketball people about this yesterday. His reaction to this event is upsetting to people who really like Phil.
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Post by hoopsguest on Mar 22, 2019 10:15:04 GMT -5
Not dug in. Just relying more on 7 year trends that show a consistent record than an apples to oranges comparison. How many .515 MAAC level coaches have moved up to the A10 and gone dancing quickly? The MAAC and A10 are pretty different. If you think he’s special, explain why. I actually don’t have a dog in the fight but you may. Again, what is his conference winning percentage? When he was at MSM their nonconference had numerous buy games to fund athletics. They play Loyola Baltimore every year, sometimes UMBC, and maybe 1 or 2 teams at their level. The rest was going to play Maryland, other Big 10, Big East, ACC school types. I have seen this guy coach - he is really good. He relates to players. He is good at finding talent under the radar. In fact his last year at MSM before the season he lost like 3 kids who transferred up because he is is good at identifying talent and they STILL competed for the league with something like 9 freshmen. And these aren't Zion type freshmen. They were picked to finish next to last in league at Siena this year, and they won 11 conference games.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 22, 2019 10:16:59 GMT -5
I could see two possible Martelli landing spots SJU hires Inglesby. Delaware hires Phil. No need to move. Second one, less likely but would make a lot of sense for the school would be for Fordham to hire Phil. The school has been a doormat. He can recruit and coach and he knows the A10 schools really well. Don’t know the politics of Fordham but getting a guy who wins for 34 years at a Jesuit school and graduates players would be at the top of my list as an AD there. Having him beat SJU and infuriate the posters on their board who wanted him out and/or Fordham out of the A10 would be a lot of fun to watch. Not sure when Neubauer's contract is up at Fordham, but I wonder if anyone can win up there. Their last NCAA appearance was 1992 and NIT in 1991, and have had only 2 years of winning records since 1992 with 5 coaches (and an interim head coach) in that time frame.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 22, 2019 10:19:17 GMT -5
Talked to a ton of Philly basketball people about this yesterday. His reaction to this event is upsetting to people who really like Phil. How selfish of him. I hope the next time he's fired after 34 years of service, that he takes into account how other people feel about his reactions to it.
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Post by MisterD on Mar 22, 2019 10:20:46 GMT -5
Talked to a ton of Philly basketball people about this yesterday. His reaction to this event is upsetting to people who really like Phil. Upsetting in they're worried about him or upsetting in that he's coming off as completely oblivious?
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 22, 2019 10:22:45 GMT -5
Talked to a ton of Philly basketball people about this yesterday. His reaction to this event is upsetting to people who really like Phil. Upsetting in they're worried about him or upsetting in that he's coming off as completely oblivious? The latter. If, in his head, he is unable to be fired after mediocre results then he isn't living in today's college basketball. Or college any sport. Even in the 90s, that would be the case. You'd probably have to go back almost 30 years to find a time where results didn't matter.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 22, 2019 10:28:34 GMT -5
The latter. If, in his head, he is unable to be fired after mediocre results then he isn't living in today's college basketball. Or college any sport. Even in the 90s, that would be the case. You'd probably have to go back almost 30 years to find a time where results didn't matter. Mediocre results? A senior graduating from SJU this May will have seen their team have an overall winning record over their 4 years, a conference championship, an NCAA tournament appearance where they got to the round of 32, and their best player leave early for the NBA. If Ash accomplishes those things in 4 years, would you call his record "mediocre"?
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Post by MisterD on Mar 22, 2019 10:32:32 GMT -5
How selfish of him. I hope the next time he's fired after 34 years of service, that he takes into account how other people feel about his reactions to it. I mean ... kinda? Micro, its showing his support for the program was conditional on his continued employment and he's willing to make things worse for them for his own comfort or whatever. Macro, comparing this to a funeral when you're better off than like 98% of people lacks self-awareness. I'm sure it hurts, but people lose their jobs every day and land in faaaaaaar worse positions. (Giannini was with us for over a decade. If he went public and 1% of this level this board would have exploded.)
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Post by durenduren on Mar 22, 2019 10:33:13 GMT -5
So at what point is Phil taking this 'woe is me' thing too far? "It cut out of my heart. It irreparably harmed my family..." Talked to a ton of Philly basketball people about this yesterday. His reaction to this event is upsetting to people who really like Phil. I'm not ignorant of how raw it obviously is, but he's airing out the dirty laundry repeatedly in a very public manner. Being upset is more than understandable, but "own funeral" and "irreparably harmed my family"? I mean, that's pretty extreme conjecture for a guy who's enjoyed a public life and is pretty damn media-savvy. Are these folks thinking he's going to far? Edit: nevermind, this got answered.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 22, 2019 10:35:13 GMT -5
The latter. If, in his head, he is unable to be fired after mediocre results then he isn't living in today's college basketball. Or college any sport. Even in the 90s, that would be the case. You'd probably have to go back almost 30 years to find a time where results didn't matter. Mediocre results? A senior graduating from SJU this May will have seen their team have an overall winning record over their 4 years, a conference championship, an NCAA tournament appearance where they got to the round of 32, and their best player leave early for the NBA. If Ash accomplishes those things in 4 years, would you call his record "mediocre"? No, but expectations are different school to school. And I have always thought Phil was a good coach. If I was the AD, I wouldn't have fired him this year. But his reaction to being fired was that of a petulant child. Going on the radio to claim "HOW DARE THEY" is stupid. St. Joe's didn't fire John Wooden. Or Jay Wright. His conference standing the last five years was: 10th, 4th, 12th, 4th, 10th. That clearly isn't good enough for the St. Joe's fans, many of whom have wanted him out for years now. Those people donate and the AD listened.
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Post by MisterD on Mar 22, 2019 10:37:45 GMT -5
Mediocre results? A senior graduating from SJU this May will have seen their team have an overall winning record over their 4 years, a conference championship, an NCAA tournament appearance where they got to the round of 32, and their best player leave early for the NBA. If Ash accomplishes those things in 4 years, would you call his record "mediocre"? I wonder if anyone was calling for Giannini's head after 2015-16 when a graduating senior had an overall winning record and a Sweet 16 appearance and their best player leaving for the NBA('s developmental league).
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Post by durenduren on Mar 22, 2019 10:40:55 GMT -5
This is evolving into one of the more 'sour grapes' responses to a firing I can recall recently. At a certain point you just need go dark, but he keeps giving the media what they want - good, dramatic quotes.
What a mess for both Phil & SJU.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 22, 2019 10:43:23 GMT -5
What a mess for both Phil & SJU. I dont think SJU cares.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 22, 2019 10:45:39 GMT -5
Mediocre results? A senior graduating from SJU this May will have seen their team have an overall winning record over their 4 years, a conference championship, an NCAA tournament appearance where they got to the round of 32, and their best player leave early for the NBA. If Ash accomplishes those things in 4 years, would you call his record "mediocre"? I wonder if anyone was calling for Giannini's head after 2015-16 when a graduating senior had an overall winning record and a Sweet 16 appearance and their best player leaving for the NBA('s developmental league). Remind me again who left early to be drafted into the NBA from La Salle? Calling for the head versus firing are different matter entirely, but feel free to continue comparing apples and oranges to suit your narrative.
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