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Post by SICguy84 on Jan 6, 2018 12:51:50 GMT -5
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Post by brotherteliow on Jan 6, 2018 13:56:05 GMT -5
#FireG&KeepTheArt
Looks good on my handmade sign for games.
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Post by big5explorer on Jan 6, 2018 14:02:46 GMT -5
I propose the University should go full-on Catholic and dismiss any students engaging in pre-marital sex or not attending every Sunday Mass.
Indulgences could then be sold to forgive transgressions, with all proceeds going to a general scholarship fund.
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Post by coachd on Jan 6, 2018 15:45:07 GMT -5
Damn right I'd sell the artwork. You want to preserve it forever? Take a picture and print it out and stick on the walls and post online. Take a video of the artwork and any old buildings. Sell the artwork and demolish the buildings. La Salle isn't in the museum business.
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Jan 6, 2018 15:57:26 GMT -5
Damn right I'd sell the artwork. You want to preserve it forever? Take a picture and print it out and stick on the walls and post online. Take a video of the artwork and any old buildings. Sell the artwork and demolish the buildings. La Salle isn't in the museum business. I am giving you a like for that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 17:04:46 GMT -5
Believe it or not we don't disagree on the italicized part, and after 5000+ words written I think you can reasonably summarize my stance as "La Salle isn't Catholic enough." The other stuff is a matter of detail, and while I don't necessarily agree I completely understand the difficulty of striking a good balance. I assure you though, if you for some reason parse all those words you'll find it's not just about the mission statement, or the paintings, and while this is obviously all targeted at La Salle, I could do the same write up about Notre Dame. Since we seem to somehow have made the leap from selling art (as a matter of symbolism and institutional energies) to that representing how "Catholic" a school is (as an accumulation over time of those things), I asked my son who is home on break what he thinks about the "Catholic" nature of La Salle (despite spending a trivial amount of time there) versus Villanova versus Notre Dame (despite spending a trivial amount of time there) (he was admitted to and visited all 3..ultimately choosing Villanova because they gave him a full ride...tuition, room and board, and books..hard to turn that down..and ironically he's not really into college basketball so that wasn't a factor for him). He told me he saw no discernible difference among the three when it came to the "Catholic nature" of the schools (because you can't finesse those things out with two hours on campus among people putting their best foot forward). So I pressed him a bit and said...well what about the full church at Villanova and ND versus La Salle's basement of College Hall chapel. His answer was interesting. Basically he said....having a fancy building doesn't make something more or less "Catholic" (but it does speak volumes about institutional energies and priorities, some of which include varying commitments to Catholicism as expressed by eventual action)...it's about the community of people and the service they do and how they engage with others. Further, buildings and statues (like at Notre Dame) are just symbols (lol) that don't necessarily say one place is more or less Catholic than the other (but it does speak volumes about institutional energies and priorities, some of which include varying commitments to Catholicism as expressed by eventual action)...it just means one place had more land or money than the other...but that's not a judge of how Catholic something is (when considered in a vacuum and not with other decisions, which you keep doing). This from a 18 year old who participates in service activities and goes to Mass weekly at college (along with rowing crew and double majoring in Comp Sci and PreMed). Symbols, rituals and traditions are important, and college tours are not in any way, shape or form an adequate way to measure a university or its culture.
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Post by durenduren on Jan 6, 2018 17:22:17 GMT -5
There's an online petition floating around social media being signed by a bunch of La Salle alum who I guarantee never even viewed more than one or two of the works being sold, but let's all hop aboard the "La Salle can't do anything right" train.
Such a joke. This debate is generally being driven by fake outrage. No one even remotely cared about the museum during their stay at La Salle, but now that the school 'screwed up again, everyone is grabbing their pitchforks.
Granted, there are true aficionados in this debate, and I respect that, but as one of the few students who regularly visited the museum when taking prospective students and families on campus tours, I feel qualified to speak on the topic. I made stops there, off script, because it was a huge and unique selling point, but it's time to sell the damn art if we need the money.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 6, 2018 17:28:03 GMT -5
Symbols, rituals and traditions are important, and college tours are not in any way, shape or form an adequate way to measure a university or its culture. I'm trying to take you seriously. I really am...but then I keep remembering how you said they could charge admission and still get 20% of the visitors Ohio State gets to their museums, and then I realize that knowing you have the same degree as I do and yet you still make those ridiculous suggestions suddenly makes my degree feel a lot less valuable. How about you buy one of the paintings and donate it back if you feel that strongly about it?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 19:10:25 GMT -5
Symbols, rituals and traditions are important, and college tours are not in any way, shape or form an adequate way to measure a university or its culture. I'm trying to take you seriously. I really am...but then I keep remembering how you said they could charge admission and still get 20% of the visitors Ohio State gets to their museums, and then I realize that knowing you have the same degree as I do and yet you still make those ridiculous suggestions suddenly makes my degree feel a lot less valuable. How about you buy one of the paintings and donate it back if you feel that strongly about it? Just so we're clear here, these are the things that to you don't matter or are of minimal value: 1. Art 2. Good PR 3. Competent PR 4. Catholic symbolism 5. Institutional decisions 6. Architecture 7. The Philadelphia Inquirer 8. WHYY and its 390k affluent listeners across the Delaware Valley 9. Anything else La Salle could have done with the art museum 10. The lack of ties to A10 schools not named St. Joes 11. The lack of vision in the vision establishing document Momentum 2022 12. Concern for the state of Catholicism at La Salle 13. The New York Times 14. Whether or not La Salle is providing a Catholic education by having a curriculum sans Catholicism 15. Mission statements 16. A lack of any kind of vision at all for the art museum, despite other institutions leveraging them to positively engage others 17. The sorry state of the university development office 18. The sorry state of the university religion department at a Catholic university 19. Anything I said about shoring up the finances of the art museum other than charging admission 20. Columbus, Ohio 21. Valuing anything other than money 22. People who don't give money to a university which continually makes decisions they disagree with 23. Decorum towards someone with genuine concern about the university and its direction That the discussion continues to be about solvency even though the artwork is being sold to establish and expand new programs should tell you everything at least about the PR side of things but also how unnecessary it was to bring about all this bad PR - if you wanted to listen to that. You, apparently, do not. Furthermore, nothing that has unfolded in the first week of the new year implies to me that the university would make good use of whatever funds I may in future donate, which will forever remain between myself and the IRS. This was a colossal waste of my time.
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Post by theneumann64 on Jan 6, 2018 19:21:18 GMT -5
I'm tremendously sorry if you feel like your time has been wasted, but I think you keep repeatedly just insisting that people who disagree with you don't "get" what you're saying.
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Post by theneumann64 on Jan 6, 2018 19:26:55 GMT -5
And as for the Catholic stuff, I've tried to mostly stay out of it for a few reasons- but you keep referencing a "Catholic Education" and I think that's a phrase that can mean a lot of things. You seem to be wanting to define it in like a CCD/Catholic school way, meaning like mandatory classes on it? I'm sure you're going to say you're not- but all of your arguments basically point out the presence of other options for Religion Classes, rather than the specific absence of Catholic-centric classes. I'm sure you could go to church at the Chapel every day, major in Religion and specifically focus on Catholic Studies if you wanted at La Salle.
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Post by theneumann64 on Jan 6, 2018 19:29:30 GMT -5
I propose the University should go full-on Catholic and dismiss any students engaging in pre-marital sex or not attending every Sunday Mass. Indulgences could then be sold to forgive transgressions, with all proceeds going to a general scholarship fund. I sadly would not have needed to spend too much money on indulgences for your first example- though not for lack of trying.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 6, 2018 19:54:42 GMT -5
I propose the University should go full-on Catholic and dismiss any students engaging in pre-marital sex or not attending every Sunday Mass. Indulgences could then be sold to forgive transgressions, with all proceeds going to a general scholarship fund. I sadly would not have needed to spend too much money on indulgences for your first example- though not for lack of trying. Were you as bad as 0 for 15 from 3 like we were against Miami?
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 6, 2018 20:02:55 GMT -5
I'm trying to take you seriously. I really am...but then I keep remembering how you said they could charge admission and still get 20% of the visitors Ohio State gets to their museums, and then I realize that knowing you have the same degree as I do and yet you still make those ridiculous suggestions suddenly makes my degree feel a lot less valuable. How about you buy one of the paintings and donate it back if you feel that strongly about it? Just so we're clear here, these are the things that to you don't matter or are of minimal value: 1. Art 2. Good PR 3. Competent PR 4. Catholic symbolism 5. Institutional decisions 6. Architecture 7. The Philadelphia Inquirer 8. WHYY and its 390k affluent listeners across the Delaware Valley 9. Anything else La Salle could have done with the art museum 10. The lack of ties to A10 schools not named St. Joes 11. The lack of vision in the vision establishing document Momentum 2022 12. Concern for the state of Catholicism at La Salle 13. The New York Times 14. Whether or not La Salle is providing a Catholic education by having a curriculum sans Catholicism 15. Mission statements 16. A lack of any kind of vision at all for the art museum, despite other institutions leveraging them to positively engage others 17. The sorry state of the university development office 18. The sorry state of the university religion department at a Catholic university 19. Anything I said about shoring up the finances of the art museum other than charging admission 20. Columbus, Ohio 21. Valuing anything other than money 22. People who don't give money to a university which continually makes decisions they disagree with 23. Decorum towards someone with genuine concern about the university and its direction That the discussion continues to be about solvency even though the artwork is being sold to establish and expand new programs should tell you everything at least about the PR side of things but also how unnecessary it was to bring about all this bad PR - if you wanted to listen to that. You, apparently, do not. Furthermore, nothing that has unfolded in the first week of the new year implies to me that the university would make good use of whatever funds I may in future donate, which will forever remain between myself and the IRS. This was a colossal waste of my time. You left our my son not caring about Villanova basketball even though he goes there. But yes...this is a fairly good summary. Besides giving money, though, you could give your time. There are numerous volunteer opportunities available through the Alumni Office that could be used to get your voice heard by more people rather than the 50 or so that read this thread. Does WHYY really have 390K affluent listeners? I don't even know where that is on the dial...I'm a SiriusXM guy myself.
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Post by durenduren on Jan 6, 2018 21:00:28 GMT -5
How I'm reading this -- Art should not be sold because Christianity, but Christianity alone will not keep La Salle open.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 21:07:47 GMT -5
I'm tremendously sorry if you feel like your time has been wasted, but I think you keep repeatedly just insisting that people who disagree with you don't "get" what you're saying. It probably is a matter of not getting what I'm saying vs. disagreement, and on this I am an imperfect messenger. As I said, I could discuss the same problems with Notre Dame, but for obvious reasons I haven't. Someone at Notre Dame has done that much more thoroughly and intelligently than I have anyway, and he published a book about it in 2013: For Notre Dame: Battling for the Heart and Soul of a Catholic University.
Here's a quote from an interview he did for the book from The Cardinal Newman Society: That makes this quote all the more hilarious: The Business School was named to Princeton Review's Best Business Schools, La Salle is in the WSJ Top 300 College Rankings (our 3-point defense last year couldn't even achieve that) and was ranked #34 of top Northeast Regional Schools by US News and World Report this past fall The rest of the interview could just as easily describe La Salle as it does Notre Dame, and largely reflects my thoughts on La Salle if you want to get into the nitty gritty on that. Notre Dame also has the Sycamore Trust, which works as a unit to these ends with varying effectiveness. As far as I know, La Salle has no equivalent. And as for the Catholic stuff, I've tried to mostly stay out of it for a few reasons- but you keep referencing a "Catholic Education" and I think that's a phrase that can mean a lot of things. You seem to be wanting to define it in like a CCD/Catholic school way, meaning like mandatory classes on it? I'm sure you're going to say you're not- but all of your arguments basically point out the presence of other options for Religion Classes, rather than the specific absence of Catholic-centric classes. I'm sure you could go to church at the Chapel every day, major in Religion and specifically focus on Catholic Studies if you wanted at La Salle. This is harder to respond to, and I don't pretend to have any concrete answers. What I do know is that La Salle is slowly sliding away from whatever it can be to that end. I am also, for the record, not opposed to courses creating a greater understanding of religions that are not Catholicism, although 22 of 37 is a bit much, to say nothing of their rigor. I would prefer the nature of Catholic education at La Salle to be something like being in a foreign country. I want it to perfume the air. I want it to be present enough that the inertia makes you take a peak inside. If afterwards you decide the food sucks, the music sounds silly and you hate that the language has 20 words for snow, then at least you tried, and at least La Salle tried. Right now it's like the opposite, and on tours it's pretty much assured that you'll hear "it's a Catholic university, but-" at least once.
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Post by durenduren on Jan 6, 2018 21:27:08 GMT -5
Fjord, I might be reading all of this wrong, but much of what you're saying is coming off as "La Salle isn't Catholic enough," and that the University has strayed from its staunchly Catholic roots, and needs to be 200% more Catholic ASAP.
While I'd argue that La Salle is as on-mission as any other Catholic institution in the land, what about that recipe has proven particularly successful to helping us avoid our current financial struggles? It's widely accepted that La Salle needs to reinvent itself in a highly competitive market, and I don't think becoming more exclusionary will support the goal of attracting more students.
All of this said, I want to acknowledge that this is so far astray from talking about art sales.
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Post by glorydays on Jan 6, 2018 22:54:41 GMT -5
These conversations are worth having.
The best theology course I ever experienced at La Salle was the "The History of Jewish Religious Thought" taught by Rabbi Bernard Frank. With my marriage track record I probably didn't pay enough attention in the "Marriage and the Family" course.
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hideaway
Mop-Up Time
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Post by hideaway on Jan 7, 2018 0:54:05 GMT -5
99 percent of students and prospective students don't give a hoot about the art in our art museum. For the 1 percent that does, La Salle will be keeping the vast majority of pieces for their enjoyment. Because we are selling the most valuable pieces, that makes us bad? For those who enjoy art or are looking for some peaceful downtime, that art museum is still there filled with art. I am sure almost all of the kids who visited that art museum had no idea which of the pieces were the expensive pieces unless the curator told them so. What makes them expensive is their artist, their rarity, etc not necessarily if they are "better" than the other pieces. Because some liberal anti-Catholic papers are writing about this sale trying to drum up sales, please think with your own minds and without emotion. If you want to see super expensive art, visit the many local art museums if seeing an "expensive" piece is what you crave. In my mind, this is the sort of excellent strategic decision that our university was missing for decades. We likely shouldn't have even been amassing this art when we did. We should have been focused on putting in place the things that the vast majority of students crave. Why? Because that is the business we are in. If you think La Salle is in the position off collecting expensive works for the good of mankind, I would say you just are so completely out of touch with the state of higher education today. While this is possible among top 50 institutions it is impossible for schools like La Salle. This is a VERY smart move by the President who just put the most students in the seats in DECADES through her bold thinking. Her leadership and vision continue to impress me.
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Post by blueandgold on Jan 7, 2018 2:46:37 GMT -5
I would have loved to see a petition for the university to kick some money at students to keep the jazz and pep band alive. But when La Salle decides to sell a few pieces (out of a couple thousand) from a museum in a basement, suddenly moral outrage. The La Salle student experience will not be negatively impacted by this. I’ve sat back and heard enough at this point. If you really care about seeing these handful of pieces, find out who buys them and go see them elsewhere. Don’t act like La Salle suddenly got greedy. Just think if this headed down the path of more layoffs or other painstaking decisions directly making individual lives (and those of their families) more difficult. I am a lover of the arts, and one that was directly involved in them at La Salle, and I am very much in favor of this move.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 3:05:10 GMT -5
It's widely accepted that La Salle needs to reinvent itself in a highly competitive market, and I don't think becoming more exclusionary will support the goal of attracting more students. All of this said, I want to acknowledge that this is so far astray from talking about art sales. I just want to give some insight here on where La Salle's starting in that reinvention within the highly competitive market: Link oneLink two
Here's a link what those are obliquely referencing, since La Salle was left off the joke. I don't know that this spontaneous reaction to La Salle would have been any different prior to the university's financial troubles. I do know that I am so, so tired of trying to hype myself up over the good news equivalent of bread crumbs.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 9, 2018 9:48:45 GMT -5
It's widely accepted that La Salle needs to reinvent itself in a highly competitive market, and I don't think becoming more exclusionary will support the goal of attracting more students. All of this said, I want to acknowledge that this is so far astray from talking about art sales. I just want to give some insight here on where La Salle's starting in that reinvention within the highly competitive market: Link oneLink two
Here's a link what those are obliquely referencing, since La Salle was left off the joke. I don't know that this spontaneous reaction to La Salle would have been any different prior to the university's financial troubles. I do know that I am so, so tired of trying to hype myself up over the good news equivalent of bread crumbs. I keep forgetting that opinions posted on Reddit represent the pinnacle of higher education credibility. Reddit is also a good place for investment and relationship advice as well. Had I seen these Reddit posts previously, I surely would've driven the call to arms to save the art.
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Post by durenduren on Jan 9, 2018 11:03:47 GMT -5
I just want to give some insight here on where La Salle's starting in that reinvention within the highly competitive market: Link oneLink two
Here's a link what those are obliquely referencing, since La Salle was left off the joke. I don't know that this spontaneous reaction to La Salle would have been any different prior to the university's financial troubles. I do know that I am so, so tired of trying to hype myself up over the good news equivalent of bread crumbs. I keep forgetting that opinions posted on Reddit represent the pinnacle of higher education credibility. Reddit is also a good place for investment and relationship advice as well. Had I seen these Reddit posts previously, I surely would've driven the call to arms to save the art. I saw that Reddit post a few days ago, and it didn't bother me because there were plenty of people saying "you forgot La Salle". And I, too, have heard the 'La Salle-Always Sunny' pasta joke before. If that's the foundation of your argument, you need to try again. And please, for the love of god, don't start linking to George Ciccarillo-Maher articles from super conservative websites again - I know more on that topic than you'd ever imagine, so trust me when I say that has absolutely no relevance. But I'm going to be real direct here - you hate the direction we're going, and the only acceptable change is reverting back to the La Salle you're familiar with, or one that reverts back to its' religious roots. But here's the problems with that - the La Salle you want back didn't work, and you're not really sure what our current direction is. You see things like art sales, and you're off to the races, starting to draw connections between religion and a lay female president. It's all bogus. La Salle is no less religious than we were 5, 10, or 50 years ago. So what if we have a lay president, that doesn't make our mission lost. Frankly, I think we're more on-mission than we were 5 or 10 years ago under the current leadership. How do you achieve your mission if you're triaging financial emergencies around every corner? The La Salle you want or speak of wasn't going to survive. It was already on life support. It was already left behind, out-paced by its' peers. And now you're going to complain that someone is actually willing to make hard decisions? We're going to bitch that the leadership is willing to adapt our university to a changing, modern society in a highly competitive environment? Catholicism in education doesn't inherently mean resisting change, though I'm sure you could find a home in Mennonite-Lancaster County if that's what you're looking for. La Salle is as religious as you want it to be, and you're never going to be force-fed religion as a student. For many, college is period of transition, self-discovery, growth, and reflection. Where La Salle excels is in its ability to provide a morally sound and respectful foundation to help root our particularly diverse community. Religion provides the underpinnings for many lessons for our young adults, but allows each community member the discretion to choose 'how much religion' they want to consume or digest. It's this reason, largely, that La Salle has such a vibrant community. On the other hand, La Salle didn't struggle because of religion either. Rather, La Salle's former leadership resisted change too long, ignored these difficult decisions, and frankly didn't address problems as they arose. Be happy we have an administration that is reinventing the university, in whatever direction that may be, because inaction or following the current course was a death-wish. Religion at La Salle isn't dead, so stop trying to kill it.
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MisterD
The Baptist Himself
Voted Most Popular Poster 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023
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Post by MisterD on Jan 9, 2018 11:27:28 GMT -5
"College-applying teenagers aren't getting more religious" is a really, really important thing to note if you care at all about La Salle existing in 20 years.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 18:59:46 GMT -5
"College-applying teenagers aren't getting more religious" is a really, really important thing to note if you care at all about La Salle existing in 20 years. If La Salle exists as Temple North in twenty years, does the La Salle you're referring to really exist? I keep forgetting that opinions posted on Reddit represent the pinnacle of higher education credibility. Reddit is also a good place for investment and relationship advice as well. Had I seen these Reddit posts previously, I surely would've driven the call to arms to save the art. I saw that Reddit post a few days ago, and it didn't bother me because there were plenty of people saying "you forgot La Salle". And I, too, have heard the 'La Salle-Always Sunny' pasta joke before. If that's the foundation of your argument, you need to try again. You see things like art sales, and you're off to the races, starting to draw connections between religion and a lay female president. It's all bogus. I didn't say anything about religion in the last post. I just wanted to be clear that that was where the university was starting from. If, after five years, the university still has only TV show jokes and comments of mediocrity when they're thought of at all, has anything in the coming five years been a success? That was my entire point, and it flew over your head. GlitterBro #2 , Is reddit a great data sample? No, but it's closer enough in age demographic to be indicative with a larger sample of where La Salle stands. But you don't have to take reddit's, mine or a television show's word for it. You can get the same opinions right here from DanRosey, aswjr, explorerman, delcodelco, and JoeFedorowicz, among others sprinkled through the rest of the board. Or, you know, from your son, the Villanovan. Furthermore durenduren not once have I mentioned the university president here. This was intentional. I have my reservations, but she hasn't done anything yet to deserve public scorn aside from the timidity of Momentum 2022. That document, by the way, has a section dedicated to making La Salle more than "the best kept secret in Philadelphia." If in five years we're still getting left out of Phillies promotions and Inquirer features because someone screwed up, and if in five years La Salle is still entirely at the mercy of public opinion, as opposed to defining itself to others, then has anything really changed? More importantly, all the things you laid out in that post that I snipped - how do those things differentiate La Salle from the other hundreds of colleges within two hours drive of the Delaware Valley, as opposed to making La Salle more like them and blending in to that morass? And surely if we're successful in that, then we'll fail to compete on cost alone with Delaware ($11,870/year), Penn State ($17,900), Stockton ($8,645), and West Chester ($7,492)? What hope can we possibly have for the restoration of the university if we can't even agree that decades of mismanagement have had a measurable impact on the reputation of the university, an impact that will need deliberate remediation at some point? And why wouldn't decades of mismanagement have a measurable impact on the reputation of the university? With all of this said, every time I come here I get more and more downbeat about the state of the university. Thankfully, there's a quick fix for that. It's been fun, y'all.
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Post by calsufan on Jan 9, 2018 21:10:01 GMT -5
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Post by theneumann64 on Jan 9, 2018 22:11:48 GMT -5
Wow. I'm not big on people publicly announcing they're leaving the board ingeneral, as if we're all going to go on a hunger strike and beg them to come back. But if you're really gonna leave because people disagreed with, VERY civilly, on a thread, then yeah, it's honestly probably not the right place for you.
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MisterD
The Baptist Himself
Voted Most Popular Poster 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023
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Likes: 6,371
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Post by MisterD on Jan 9, 2018 22:58:12 GMT -5
Are we getting another $5MM for him?
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Jan 9, 2018 22:58:26 GMT -5
Deuces... There was nothing here, no personal attacks, no jabs, no digs, nothing, just deep debate. Probably our hottest thread in a month.
There are people that want messageboards, not just ours, bit others as well, to be a worshipping soundboard of the team and school in general.
In reality, threads like this, while getting deep, are why Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors.
Regarding Fjord, good luck to you. I disagreed with you often, especially the criticism about G living in South Jersey... But I agreed with most of your basketball points. If you ever come back, I will engage you. Perhaps some thicker skin would be better suited for the future.
Deuces
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Post by durenduren on Jan 9, 2018 23:33:53 GMT -5
God speed, comrade. Chalk up another tally for Explorertown - defeating itself since Two-Thousand-Whatever.
Anyway, not sorry we disagreed. Sorry I'm now left with Steve making bad jokes about me meeting BJ's father over and over.
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