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Post by coqui900 on Feb 26, 2018 9:44:41 GMT -5
A guest on ESPN radio had a simple solution for this mess. For the kids who don't want to go to college or don't value a college education and wants to make money, let them go from high school to the pros. Why not? Paying them hard dollars while in college is no different than letting them go pro and getting paid. I am dead set against 'paying' a student athlete cash while in college. They already are being paid indirectly with tuition + books+ room and board. With each college only being able to offer the same tuition /room /board package, it levels the playing field. Those breaking the current rules today are just greedy. The NBA doesn't want it. They don't want to draft Sebastian Telfair, or Robert Swift based on scouting vs high school competition. It's an NBA rule, not NCAA. If the NBA gets their way with the next CBA, it will be a 20 year old age limit. The NBA did want to draft Sebastian Telfair, though. They drafted him really high. There a great book about his recruitment called The Jump about his decision to go pro out of high school. The big climactic scene in the story is him going one-on-one versus Jameer Nelson that essentially determines who will get picked over who. I was sort of apoplectic when I was reading that book and the importance of a one-on-one game. Who friggin' cares about a one-on-one game? Especially for point guards? Passing, shooting, command of an offense, knowing a team's defensive sets, etc. are all so much more important. Sebastian Telfair played in high school and AAU. Jameer was the best college player in the country that season and is on the short list of all-time best college basketball PGs. Bassy flamed out really quickly. Jameer was the starting PG on a NBA Finals team in Orlando, made an All-Star game and is wrapping up a really solid career. He's not a HOF guy by any stretch, but he was a very solid PG. But the NBA wanted high school kids or else they would not have taken them.
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Post by coqui900 on Feb 26, 2018 9:52:28 GMT -5
A part of the "HS kids making the leap" deal that isn't being discussed is how much better NBA team management has gotten over the past decade. Teams make so many decisions based on advanced stats, fact-based evidence and also take player development so much more seriously. There are still some crappy teams (Sacramento), but there aren't a lot of really crappy contracts being handed out to big men who had three good playoff games and got paid off of that anymore.
How does this affect the draft if the NBA goes back to letting high school kids enter? Someone like LeBron would obviously still be a top draft pick. But he's a once-in-50-years type of player. If there are a flood of high school kids - way more than the one-and-done era we have now - than what GM in their right mind is going to take the next Sebastian Telfair really high? The draft is such a risk/reward deal. GMs before were all about gambling on the reward. But so many more now are risk-averse.
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Feb 26, 2018 9:53:47 GMT -5
Telfair went downhill really quickly, guns on airplanes, traded several times. I remember watching Through the Fire, his documentary, and thinking, "these kids have bullshit home lives and bullshit guidance."
When you look at the way his older brother coached Lincoln, did any of those kids receive real coaching?
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Feb 26, 2018 9:54:50 GMT -5
I also think that college athletes should be able to endorse projects and make money off endorsements.
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Post by theneumann64 on Feb 26, 2018 10:10:34 GMT -5
I think we could ultimately see something where if you come out right out of High School, you have to play in the D League for a year and a half or something like that. Why? Its obviously better than forcing unpaid years, but no other sport mandates minor league service. They don't mandate it, but nearly every baseball player spends several years in the Minors before they come up. I just think they need to come up with an option where guys can get paid, don't have to go through the charade of being "student-athletes" if they really don't want to, but the NBA product isn't damaged by a bunch of guys, drafted on potential alone, playing in the NBA when they're clearly not ready for it. There were guys who came right out of High School and WERE ready of course, but under the current system, they're not able to do that anymore anyway. An option where you can come right out of High School, but need to play in the G League for a year (or whatever they land on), is a pretty good compromise in my opinion. Or you can always go overseas for a year or so. If you're going to be absolutist about it, anything short of guys coming straight out isn't going to cut it, I get that. But I think there's room for compromise.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Feb 26, 2018 10:39:00 GMT -5
I guess part of the issue here is I don't believe there was really a problem, or atleast not a problem in need of a solution. The NBA gets a free minor league and the NCAA gets all the best talent passing through again and its accomplished by mandating players can't turn pro at the highest level (and one they've proven they belong at). There's no real justification, you can't say "LeBron and Garnett and Amar'e would have benefited from college", its like 80% financial and 20% Pence-ing a situation by banning the other side to protect yourself.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Feb 26, 2018 10:42:46 GMT -5
They don't mandate it, but nearly every baseball player spends several years in the Minors before they come up. As for this part, its because 18 year old americans have proven themselves unable to compete at the major league level almost to a player. HS basketball players haven't. (That argument works for football, I can buy that a HS senior almost assuredly isn't ready for the NFL level, but banning paid participation at any level shouldn't be the answer there either.)
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Feb 26, 2018 10:49:34 GMT -5
I guess part of the issue here is I don't believe there was really a problem, or atleast not a problem in need of a solution. The NBA gets a free minor league and the NCAA gets all the best talent passing through again and its accomplished by mandating players can't turn pro at the highest level (and one they've proven they belong at). There's no real justification, you can't say "LeBron and Garnett and Amar'e would have benefited from college", its like 80% financial and 20% Pence-ing a situation by banning the other side to protect yourself. You cherry picked LeBron, arguably the 2nd best player of all time (excluding Wilt) and KG, who had a 20 year HOF career. What about Kwame Brown and Robert Swift? Most of the guys that went high school to NBA don't fit into the Amare, LeBron, and KG category. Most of them benefit from playing college basketball, at least their games benefit.
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Post by coachd on Feb 26, 2018 10:56:01 GMT -5
Possible solution to help end the corruption in college basketball: 1. Have the NBA pay for college for those kids who are students and want the college experience to develop their game and have a fall back in case of injury. The deal is a 2 year minimum commitment and the student athlete must get at least an associates degree. The 3 year plan is full degree. 4 years for masters degree. The NBA must pay (regardless of injury) as long as the student athlete is enrolled and has at least a 2.5 GPA. Tuition, board and standard meals would be covered as well as a monthly stipend for cost of living. If drafted after two to four years they would payback a portion of their training costs pro-rated on where they were selected. If not selected in draft they could either be drafted overseas or encouraged to start a career outside of basketball in their major.
2. For those high school grads who don't have the grades for college (not admissible if they were just a student)... the NBA would have a developmental league for 18-20 year olds and would be drafted by potential NBA teams. The NBA would only have either a one or two year commitment and would house and provide meals for these players and provide a small monthly stipend for other expenses. They would live in a disciplined environment similar to the military with early morning practices and lights out by 10pm every night. A few hours each day would be spent on learning a skill or trade such as plumbing or carpentry work. If drafted after one or two years they would payback a portion of their training costs pro-rated on where they were selected. If not selected in draft they could either be drafted overseas or encouraged to start a career outside of basketball ideally related to training they received.
3. It cannot be like baseball as hitting a baseball is one of the toughest things to do in sports which is why there are so many levels (Rookie, A, AA, AAA). The NBA could either combine this operation for 18-20 year olds with their existing developmental league or make it an entirely separate operation.
4. Agents would face $1 million fines for talking to anyone who hasn't declared for the NBA draft. And there can be ZERO communication with any NCAA coach including assistants.
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Post by coqui900 on Feb 26, 2018 10:59:44 GMT -5
Kwame had an 11-year career and made almost $60 million. He did okay for himself. He obviously didn't live up to the hype of being a number one pick. But playing in the NBA for a decade is something more than a lot of other top picks can say, and he certainly should be okay financially depending on how he managed his money.
I'll give you Robert Swift. There is also Lenny Clarke and Leon Smith and a bunch of others. But how much of their life story is due to moving to the NBA? Was the three months of half-assing it in a college classroom (none of the one-and-done guys even bother with spring classes) really going to make a difference in the lives of Robert Swift or Leon Smith?
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Post by weston2 on Feb 26, 2018 11:08:49 GMT -5
I also think that college athletes should be able to endorse projects and make money off endorsements. LOL...............an 18-19 yr old "endorsing" what.............spokesperson? Give me a break BUT u know somebody will bite on it.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Feb 26, 2018 11:22:37 GMT -5
You cherry picked LeBron, arguably the 2nd best player of all time (excluding Wilt) and KG, who had a 20 year HOF career. What about Kwame Brown and Robert Swift? Most of the guys that went high school to NBA don't fit into the Amare, LeBron, and KG category. Most of them benefit from playing college basketball, at least their games benefit. I "cherry picked" one of the best players ever because he would have been affected by a blanket rule. I could have picked Kobe too if I'd thought a little about my comment. If wiki is to be believed, and it always is, there were 39 high school players picked in the 1995-2005 window. Between 4 and 6 will go to the Hall of Fame. You can talk Robert Swift and whoever else, but isn't the simple counter to point to all the college players who are in that same bucket, from freshman overdrafts to senior flops. Adam Morrison? Derrick Williams? Would Orlando be worse off having drafted Ayton than Jonathan Isaac? You can't legislate out bad GMing and, really, that was only a small part of intent here anyway.
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Post by coqui900 on Feb 26, 2018 11:32:08 GMT -5
I really could see someone pretty smart deciding to start up an U-20 league. Or maybe not U-20 alone. The marquee guys would be the U-20 "one-and-done" types and the rest of the rosters would be G-League/Europe-level talent. The G-League pays crap. It has gotten slightly more professional since NBA teams started owning affiliates, but other than the two "up-and-down" roster slots and a bunch of guys who made money in Europe and are trying to get back on the NBA radar, it's the dregs. And other than a few countries, foreign basketball is a friggin' crapshoot in terms of getting paychecks that cash, on top of the language/cultural challenges.
A league where the average salary per player was like $100,000/season works well for everyone. The draft-quality players get paid. The G-League types make more money. US guys who would normally head to Europe would stay home.
I just don't know if this would work well enough to make money. What would the attendance be? I'd imagine it would be WNBA-level attendance at best. I have no idea even where you would be able to have these games. Or maybe it'd be an extended summer thing?
I think Lonzo Ball floated this idea. So, yeah, it's probably a bad idea.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Feb 26, 2018 11:34:36 GMT -5
A U-20 would never work because it would still be a secondary league. The only way a new league could work would be a legit threat to the NBA itself which I imagine isn't coming.
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Post by Fastchuck on Feb 26, 2018 13:45:32 GMT -5
How about a development league where the teams play a limited number of division 1 schools as well as G leagues teams and each other. You can even play a limited number of games against NBA teams. A chance for everyone to learn the NBA game and showcase talent.
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Feb 26, 2018 14:27:23 GMT -5
I really could see someone pretty smart deciding to start up an U-20 league. Or maybe not U-20 alone. The marquee guys would be the U-20 "one-and-done" types and the rest of the rosters would be G-League/Europe-level talent. The G-League pays crap. It has gotten slightly more professional since NBA teams started owning affiliates, but other than the two "up-and-down" roster slots and a bunch of guys who made money in Europe and are trying to get back on the NBA radar, it's the dregs. And other than a few countries, foreign basketball is a friggin' crapshoot in terms of getting paychecks that cash, on top of the language/cultural challenges. A league where the average salary per player was like $100,000/season works well for everyone. The draft-quality players get paid. The G-League types make more money. US guys who would normally head to Europe would stay home. I just don't know if this would work well enough to make money. What would the attendance be? I'd imagine it would be WNBA-level attendance at best. I have no idea even where you would be able to have these games. Or maybe it'd be an extended summer thing? I think Lonzo Ball floated this idea. So, yeah, it's probably a bad idea. I am struggling to type these words but Lavar Ball is supposedly going to do this.
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Post by weston2 on Feb 26, 2018 14:32:44 GMT -5
How about a development league where the teams play a limited number of division 1 schools as well as G leagues teams and each other. You can even play a limited number of games against NBA teams. A chance for everyone to learn the NBA game and showcase talent. The market is over-saturated with games. Who's gonna buy this stuff. I know market it as a reality show. Oprah might buy into it.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Feb 26, 2018 14:51:31 GMT -5
No one cares about the D-league, no one cared about the CBA, that retired players league seemed like a flop. If you aren't the top level, no one is going to care.
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Post by coqui900 on Feb 26, 2018 14:52:37 GMT -5
Here's another question.
Without gambling, exactly how popular would the NCAA be? March Madness is the best tournament in US sports. But there is no way it is this big without everyone in the world entering pools.
On the other hand: College basketball is our one true "national" sport. The only state without a team is Alaska. During our run, a small Northeastern Catholic liberal arts school beat a "commuter school turning into a regional entity" in Boise/the "other" state school in Kansas/the bastion of the Old South before losing out to a commuter school in a small Midwestern city. That doesn't happen anywhere else. Nor do things like The Big 5 or Duke/UNC or any number of other rivalries.
But I still think gambling is 95% responsible for the NCAA getting billions in TV money. What even are the ratings for something like Indiana vs. Missouri on CBS anymore? Or your random ESPN game?
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Feb 26, 2018 14:59:23 GMT -5
Here's another question. Without gambling, exactly how popular would the NCAA be? March Madness is the best tournament in US sports. But there is no way it is this big without everyone in the world entering pools. On the other hand: College basketball is our one true "national" sport. The only state without a team is Alaska. During our run, a small Northeastern Catholic liberal arts school beat a "commuter school turning into a regional entity" in Boise/the "other" state school in Kansas/the bastion of the Old South before losing out to a commuter school in a small Midwestern city. That doesn't happen anywhere else. Nor do things like The Big 5 or Duke/UNC or any number of other rivalries. But I still think gambling is 95% responsible for the NCAA getting billions in TV money. What even are the ratings for something like Indiana vs. Missouri on CBS anymore? Or your random ESPN game? Without gambling, how big would the NFL be? You can roll fantasy and Daily Fantasy in that as well. How big would sports be without gambling?
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Mar 1, 2018 15:31:03 GMT -5
Miller is coaching Arizona tonight against Stanford. I think I'm going to tune into that game at 10 (on FS1) and check it out.
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Post by durenduren on Mar 1, 2018 15:40:02 GMT -5
Miller is coaching Arizona tonight against Stanford. I think I'm going to tune into that game at 10 (on FS1) and check it out. Christian Dawkins just texted me on behalf of Sean Miller, said he didn't do it. It's cool!
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Mar 1, 2018 18:53:10 GMT -5
Looks like Arizona is doubling down against the wiretap... Hell, at this point, I guess denial is the only defense.
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Post by manayunk53 on Mar 1, 2018 19:38:01 GMT -5
Looks like Arizona is doubling down against the wiretap... Hell, at this point, I guess denial is the only defense.
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Post by blueandgold on Mar 1, 2018 22:49:34 GMT -5
How does Miller get multiple standing Os when the FBI reportedly has recorded evidence of him discussing $100k to a recruit?
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Mar 2, 2018 6:20:51 GMT -5
Supposedly, the recordings do not fit the timeline. The player was already signed and committed to play for Arizona at the time of the $100K conversation. Either Miller is lying, or ESPN is in trouble.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 2, 2018 6:22:13 GMT -5
ESPN amended their report and then retracted their amendment.
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Post by thelasallelunatic on Mar 2, 2018 7:06:20 GMT -5
ESPN amended their report and then retracted their amendment. It would be something if all of this outrage was based off false reports.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Mar 2, 2018 7:23:23 GMT -5
ESPN amended their report and then retracted their amendment. It would be something if all of this outrage was based off false reports. I read it that Sean Miller probably won’t go to jail. He probably won’t coach Arizona beyond this year. Arizona has decided that the publicity from a tournament run outweighs losing this season in the future. Or they assume the season is already lost.
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Post by sweat83 on Mar 2, 2018 8:53:19 GMT -5
Supposedly, the recordings do not fit the timeline. The player was already signed and committed to play for Arizona at the time of the $100K conversation. Either Miller is lying, or ESPN is in trouble. So, how many days has it been since this story first appeared? About a week? Gives Miller plenty of time to be coached, and deny, deny, deny. Same as Ricky P. These guys have no conscience. They recruit 16/17 year old kids, and lie to their and their families faces. You don't think they will flat out lie in front of a camera to preserve their self worth? Once these accusations surfaced, I have to imagine the high priced lawyers from the Universities, agents, sneaker companies, etc were given their marching orders, and went to work to discredit ESPN. It's like any other high profile news story. Folks working behind the scenes, bending twisting facts, and fabricating stories. This is the world we live in now, where there really aren't any facts anymore.
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