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Post by gymrat67 on Dec 11, 2019 10:25:29 GMT -5
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Dec 11, 2019 15:37:22 GMT -5
Not what I said, but I see two people get hired every week. Not one of them is without a college degree. "Unless you’re going to be a laborer, you need a degree to even be considered. " - Joe Fed What you said that I said and what I actually said are different. And I have nothing against Laborers. My dad has been a union laborer for 40 years. But the concept that you can just go out at 18-21 and grab a job at a media company, financial institution, or the like is just outright wrong.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Dec 11, 2019 16:18:24 GMT -5
And that’s everywhere. Unless you’re going to be a laborer, you need a degree to even be considered. You said if you don't get a degree you are a "laborer". What you said that I said and what I actually said are different. And I have nothing against Laborers. My dad has been a union laborer for 40 years. But the concept that you can just go out at 18-21 and grab a job at a media company, financial institution, or the like is just outright wrong. I'm not sure how what you said and what I said you said are different. Also not sure why you feel the need to pivot and talk about your feelings about laborers unless you have some deep-rooted issue with them. No one brought that up but you added it unsolicited to the discussion. That's weird. The point was, professional jobs can be obtained without a degree, and that one can rise up the ranks, own their own company, whatever, without necessarily having a degree. The path to career success does not HAVE to be with a degree. It's not a choice between "degree" or "laborer" as you stated above.
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Post by las71 on Dec 11, 2019 16:45:36 GMT -5
There are so many issues being addressed in this thred and all are significant. The cost of college is certainly a major problem for the majority of families. While few pay the sticker price, far too many students have burdensome debt when they finish. Part of the problem is that loan interest was capped when I was a student while today's students are paying a market rate of interest which is painfully high especially when compared with what banks are paying in interest on deposits. I think we need to return to the capped rates and 10 year payback time frame. Banks are gladly refinancing student debt at high rates over longer terms màking it even more difficult for students to ever get out of debt. Additionally schools will have to find ways to reduce costs. Reductions in the number of administrators has begun at many institutions. While it is wildly unpopular among faculty, professors will have to teach more hours. The economics of teaching 9 or 12 hours weekly is unsustainable at many smaller schools. Another expense is the arms race in amenities. Is the rock climbing wall, Starbucks and multiple dining halls truly necessary. We may never find out but would a school attract more students by phasing out some amenities, focusing more on the classroom and actually lowering the costs for students. Shouldn't the college experience be more about the educational product than the social product? Schools like ours cannot compete with public institutions when it comes to amenities so maybe we will have to go all in on the quality of the education while lowering costs and passing that savings on to the consumer. I hope that our beloved Alma mater can find a way to thrive in a difficult market.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Dec 11, 2019 17:08:55 GMT -5
The point was, professional jobs can be obtained without a degree, and that one can rise up the ranks, own their own company, whatever, without necessarily having a degree. The path to career success does not HAVE to be with a degree. It's not a choice between "degree" or "laborer" as you stated above. This is so dumb. Yes, of course it can happen, but I imagine the odds are low enough that any kid of yours looking to enter the white collar world is going to college, right?
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Dec 11, 2019 18:17:03 GMT -5
Npoa
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Dec 11, 2019 18:46:17 GMT -5
The point was, professional jobs can be obtained without a degree, and that one can rise up the ranks, own their own company, whatever, without necessarily having a degree. The path to career success does not HAVE to be with a degree. It's not a choice between "degree" or "laborer" as you stated above. This is so dumb. Yes, of course it can happen, but I imagine the odds are low enough that any kid of yours looking to enter the white collar world is going to college, right? Odds aren't THAT low if you want to hustle. Actually my oldest had people giving him nice coding offers right out of high school. But since Nova was giving him a ride, he figured hey...I'll take their free $75K a year and get a degree. I know several kids who have gone to Drexel, done their first co-op, and dropped out to work full time...might as well get paid rather than pay Drexel tuition for the next several years. Many have the intention of going back part-time, but I know not all will. Is it the norm, no, but it's not as far fetched as you might think depending on the field one is pursuing, and it certainly doesn't mean your only choice is to end up a laborer if you don't go to college. For what it's worth, I was waiting for you to come to Joe's rescue in this thread as he normally gets twisted up in his arguments and you try to bail him out with a personal pivot. You didn't disappoint, although took longer than I expected.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Dec 11, 2019 18:51:17 GMT -5
Your ‘hustle’ argument is perfect, thanks.
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Post by gymrat67 on Dec 11, 2019 21:09:02 GMT -5
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Post by durenduren on Dec 11, 2019 22:21:32 GMT -5
Odds aren't THAT low if you want to hustle. As a son of a laborer, and as a first generation college graduate, that is an ignorant position. I’ll be sure to tell my father, who worked 42 years outside as a union carpenter that he could have done better or achieved more if he hustled. I know several kids who have gone to Drexel, done their first co-op, and dropped out to work full time...might as well get paid rather than pay Drexel tuition for the next several years. Many have the intention of going back part-time, but I know not all will. This is a gross exaggeration and disingenuous argument. If this was true, everyone would drop out if they could get the same job without the debt and effort. Of course it is *possible*, but It’s a technical school, and these fields require degrees. ”I want to be biomedical engineer, but I don’t have a degree. I promise I’m qualified even though I dropped out.” Doesn’t work that way for the 99%, but you already knew that.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Dec 12, 2019 2:12:50 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I was waiting for you to come to Joe's rescue in this thread as he normally gets twisted up in his arguments and you try to bail him out with a personal pivot. You didn't disappoint, although took longer than I expected. Remember that time you got so invested in a silly pro-Billy Lange comment you made that you added 10 points to Howard’s worst loss and it still wasn’t enough cover the most recent St. Joseph’s of PA margin?
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Dec 12, 2019 9:02:17 GMT -5
Odds aren't THAT low if you want to hustle. As a son of a laborer, and as a first generation college graduate, that is an ignorant position. I’ll be sure to tell my father, who worked 42 years outside as a union carpenter that he could have done better or achieved more if he hustled. If that's your take from that, then that's a shame. Point was...there are lots of people who aren't laborers who have successful careers in a variety of fields, and many don't have college degrees. Increasingly, professional companies will hire into white collar jobs without them. Is it the norm - no - but it happens. And...everyone can achieve more with hustle...even those with degrees. so...yeah...let's not use "hustle" pejoratively. If someone wants to be a CFO, run a medical practice, own their own woodworking business, be a top real estate agent, make the NBA all star team...they have to hustle. I know several kids who have gone to Drexel, done their first co-op, and dropped out to work full time...might as well get paid rather than pay Drexel tuition for the next several years. Many have the intention of going back part-time, but I know not all will. This is a gross exaggeration and disingenuous argument. If this was true, everyone would drop out if they could get the same job without the debt and effort. Of course it is *possible*, but It’s a technical school, and these fields require degrees. ”I want to be biomedical engineer, but I don’t have a degree. I promise I’m qualified even though I dropped out.” Doesn’t work that way for the 99%, but you already knew that. Again, no one is saying you are going to get a biomedical engineering job without a bachelor's degree. Engineering in general requires that. There are lots of people who work and then go part-time at night (La Salle has lots of part-time students). Bookkeepers looking to get their accounting degree for example, and coders and web developers don't truly need degrees (and many computer science curricula are actually behind what is used in the real world). The kids I've seen that have left Drexel after 1 or 2 co-ops decided their on-the-job learning was more valuable than their classroom learning.
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Post by 1801olney on Dec 12, 2019 9:18:38 GMT -5
There are so many issues being addressed in this thred and all are significant. The cost of college is certainly a major problem for the majority of families. While few pay the sticker price, far too many students have burdensome debt when they finish. Part of the problem is that loan interest was capped when I was a student while today's students are paying a market rate of interest which is painfully high especially when compared with what banks are paying in interest on deposits. I think we need to return to the capped rates and 10 year payback time frame. Banks are gladly refinancing student debt at high rates over longer terms màking it even more difficult for students to ever get out of debt. Additionally schools will have to find ways to reduce costs. Reductions in the number of administrators has begun at many institutions. While it is wildly unpopular among faculty, professors will have to teach more hours. The economics of teaching 9 or 12 hours weekly is unsustainable at many smaller schools. Another expense is the arms race in amenities. Is the rock climbing wall, Starbucks and multiple dining halls truly necessary. We may never find out but would a school attract more students by phasing out some amenities, focusing more on the classroom and actually lowering the costs for students. Shouldn't the college experience be more about the educational product than the social product? Schools like ours cannot compete with public institutions when it comes to amenities so maybe we will have to go all in on the quality of the education while lowering costs and passing that savings on to the consumer. I hope that our beloved Alma mater can find a way to thrive in a difficult market. I agree with alot of this. However, I would say that I grew more socially than educationally in my four years at La Salle. Maybe because I transitioned to a different career path that has nothing to do with my major? I learned more about time management, etc. than anything. Looking back on it, I didnt know shit about the real world as an 18-21 year old. Those four years at La Salle being on my own helped me grow up.
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MisterD
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Post by MisterD on Dec 12, 2019 11:35:20 GMT -5
Same. I was a pretty unserious HS student (I had to be reminded the SATs were the upcoming weekend) and going 3 hours from home to La Salle helped turn me into a still unserious but mostly responsible adult.
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Post by manayunk53 on Dec 13, 2019 15:23:06 GMT -5
Also the NBA. Don't need a degree there.
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Post by gymrat67 on Jan 16, 2020 16:00:40 GMT -5
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Post by gymrat67 on Jan 21, 2020 22:06:28 GMT -5
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Post by SICguy84 on Jan 24, 2020 9:10:26 GMT -5
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Post by hykos1045 on Jan 24, 2020 12:17:15 GMT -5
Was driving home from Camden's big win last night, and saw this plastered on a blue billboard. I think it was somewhere near Chester on I95 North.
La Salle: Top 4% in the nation for first year salaries
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Post by coachd on Jan 24, 2020 15:23:19 GMT -5
This is so dumb. Yes, of course it can happen, but I imagine the odds are low enough that any kid of yours looking to enter the white collar world is going to college, right? Odds aren't THAT low if you want to hustle. Actually my oldest had people giving him nice coding offers right out of high school. But since Nova was giving him a ride, he figured hey...I'll take their free $75K a year and get a degree. I know several kids who have gone to Drexel, done their first co-op, and dropped out to work full time...might as well get paid rather than pay Drexel tuition for the next several years. Many have the intention of going back part-time, but I know not all will. Is it the norm, no, but it's not as far fetched as you might think depending on the field one is pursuing, and it certainly doesn't mean your only choice is to end up a laborer if you don't go to college. For what it's worth, I was waiting for you to come to Joe's rescue in this thread as he normally gets twisted up in his arguments and you try to bail him out with a personal pivot. You didn't disappoint, although took longer than I expected. In this booming economy of the past few years I know several Java coders who are getting multiple offers and all are above $140k per year... and they get offers from different areas of the country too. Most are now taking 6 month max assignments while the economy is booming whereas before they'd take 1 year minimum. Most of it depends on your skills and what is hot in the economy at the time... online education is another option for some.
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gymratlsc72
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Post by gymratlsc72 on Jan 25, 2020 1:31:44 GMT -5
Was driving home from Camden's big win last night, and saw this plastered on a blue billboard. I think it was somewhere near Chester on I95 North. La Salle: Top 4% in the nation for first year salariesTop 4% was correct, but it was for 10-year earnings, not first year salaries. Attachment Deleted(click on photo for enlarged view) SICguy84 posted a link above to the Inquirer article on this topic. It features La Salle very positively early, but then writes about nearly everyone else not named La Salle. The article includes some lists ... all featuring total career earnings instead of the 10-year earnings La Salle chose to highlight on the billboards. Outside of the lists and deeper in the article, La Salle did get a key mention related to total career earnings: "For traditional four-year colleges, La Salle ranked 27th in Pennsylvania with its bachelor’s valued at $1.2 million over a career. A Temple degree ranked 72nd in the state with a $1 million value. A Pennsylvania State University degree just missed $1 million, ranking 89th among Pennsylvania institutions with a lifetime value of $990,000."
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Jan 25, 2020 8:40:55 GMT -5
Wonder about the algorithm they used for this.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 25, 2020 9:36:11 GMT -5
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Post by hykos1045 on Jan 25, 2020 13:02:53 GMT -5
Wonder about the algorithm they used for this. In layman's terms, I think it means an average 45-year career, if you make 26.666 more per year than your non-degree earning counterparts, your degree is worth, linearly 1.2M. However, with the time value of money, it is difficult to determine precisely what that cash flow is truly worth in present value. Without reading the details posted by Glitter2, I'm not sure if/how they adjusted for that. Also, the difference between 1.2M and 990k over the course of 45 years is a lot smaller in per year salary, as it would seem a difference of less than 5k in what you make in your first year alone could over time turn into 200k+, maybe even closer to 300k when considering raises and promotions. The first year salary is so important, and I think our co-op placement and career services is the most crucial part of making sure grads get well connected. Having an extensive alumni network in the region also helps. Last but not least, our alums moving to DC, NY, New England and Phila/NJ after college means our cost of living is higher than most Penn State alums, I'm guessing, so it's kind of a loaded stat if this factor isn't taken into account.
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Post by theneumann64 on Jan 25, 2020 13:17:08 GMT -5
Wonder about the algorithm they used for this. In layman's terms, I think it means an average 45-year career. Let’s leave Bartolo Colon out of this.
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Post by GlitterBro #2 on Jan 26, 2020 7:48:37 GMT -5
Wonder about the algorithm they used for this. However, with the time value of money, it is difficult to determine precisely what that cash flow is truly worth in present value. Without reading the details posted by Glitter2, I'm not sure if/how they adjusted for that. Yep...although they acknowledge some of the shortcoming of computing it "We use a 2 percent discount rate since we cannot assume that someone is willing to trade off the higher risk of investing in the stock market for a higher return. Other researchers have used different rates, such as the average historical returns to the stock market or an average of both the yield on US Treasury securities and stock market returns. This implicitly assumes that someone is willing to accept a higher return in exchange for the additional risk of investing in the stock market. Even though we rank the net present value for all colleges with available data, we exclude from these rankings an important benchmark: the alternative to not investing in postsecondary education. This benchmark varies depending on circumstances. For example, instead of attending college, a potential student might choose to participate in the labor force with just a high school diploma and earn $15,000 a year."
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Post by hykos1045 on Jan 26, 2020 11:07:00 GMT -5
Above the fold story on today's Sunday Inquirer shows a picture of the billboard. Some nice publicity.
Looks like assumptions are a 40 year career, actually. The "1 million dollar degree" is the value of the salary minus the tuition paid, though I do not quite understand the logic. don't they have to net out average wages one could've made without the degree? I did not see this referenced.
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Post by gymrat67 on Feb 16, 2020 18:06:56 GMT -5
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Sept 16, 2020 17:43:40 GMT -5
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gymratlsc72
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Post by gymratlsc72 on Sept 26, 2020 16:54:45 GMT -5
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