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Post by belfieldhappyhour on Feb 15, 2015 13:26:04 GMT -5
I'll premise this by saying I didn't watch yesterday's game, so I'll use this as a general statement. I hate when talk of how the refs effected an outcome comes into play more often when we lose. I'm sure G works the refs in his own way, and I agree there have been times he should have gotten a T to protect his players. Maybe he needs to go the Pat Chambers route and crush the refs in his postgame presser. Wonder what it going to come of this for PSU and Chambers (fine or reprimand?) www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2015-02-15/penn-state-maryland-pat-chambers-referees-refs-officiating-melo-trimble-dj-newbillChambers' full quote about the refs via this story - collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/15/penn-state-pat-chambers-rips-referees-after-big-ten-loss-to-maryland/“That is the worst call that I’ve ever seen in my entire life. They’re pulling Jordan Dickerson down. First of all, time and score. He’s too young, he doesn’t have a feel for the game, he shouldn’t call that foul. That’s one.” “Two is, he back cut. He went down the middle. He didn’t even use the screen and he got pulled down and they called a foul on him? It makes no sense. And if I didn’t complain Newbill would have gotten to the foul line because Trimble gets there 12 times and he’s a freshman and he’s on the road. It’s a joke. It’s a joke the way we’re officiated. It’s disappointing. And there was an elbow that they didn’t want to call that they should have called that normally get called against us. Frustrating, disappointing. But, we gotta take the refs out of the game, and we didn’t.” |
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Post by explorer88 on Feb 15, 2015 13:29:00 GMT -5
Absolutely.
Many on here have been complaining about this for years. G needs to protect his player more often.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Feb 15, 2015 13:42:22 GMT -5
Absolutely. Many on here have been complaining about this for years. G needs to protect his player more often. There are ways to do this without screaming. Wright and Smart do it the best, in my opinion. |
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Post by explorer88 on Feb 15, 2015 13:45:37 GMT -5
Absolutely. Many on here have been complaining about this for years. G needs to protect his player more often. There are ways to do this without screaming. Wright and Smart do it the best, in my opinion. I would agree but at times I would settle for something or anything more than what happens now. |
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Post by golasalle on Feb 15, 2015 14:56:31 GMT -5
There are ways to do this without screaming. Wright and Smart do it the best, in my opinion. I would agree but at times I would settle for something or anything more than what happens now. Not sure if either of you were at the game, but G was the most animated toward the refs that I have seen in some time. Maybe a reflection of how bad they truly were. I really think the working the refs thing is really overblown. If it had a tangible effect or impact on the game, don't you think everyone would do it and refs would get immune. Coaches all complain to the refs, some more than others. I haven't seen anyone come up with tangible evidence that it works or doesn't. Coaches and teams build reputations with refs, in a similar way with pitchers or hitters with umpires. I really don't think that overall it helps or hurts. Sometimes, like yesterday, the refs are just incompetent or having a bad game. It happens. |
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Feb 15, 2015 15:25:20 GMT -5
I would agree but at times I would settle for something or anything more than what happens now. Not sure if either of you were at the game, but G was the most animated toward the refs that I have seen in some time. Maybe a reflection of how bad they truly were. I really think the working the refs thing is really overblown. If it had a tangible effect or impact on the game, don't you think everyone would do it and refs would get immune. Coaches all complain to the refs, some more than others. I haven't seen anyone come up with tangible evidence that it works or doesn't. Coaches and teams build reputations with refs, in a similar way with pitchers or hitters with umpires. I really don't think that overall it helps or hurts. Sometimes, like yesterday, the refs are just incompetent or having a bad game. It happens. Not so much the "if" but the "how" for me. I agree with what I bolded above. I just feel that other coaches build better reputations / relationships. |
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Post by coqui900 on Feb 15, 2015 16:35:44 GMT -5
I've never understood how G getting a tech -- i.e., essentially giving the other team a free point plus the chance for more if possession changes -- helps anyone.
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Post by mookie on Feb 15, 2015 20:22:36 GMT -5
I've never understood how G getting a tech -- i.e., essentially giving the other team a free point plus the chance for more if possession changes -- helps anyone. I think context...when your team is getting screwed or stepped all over by the refs and/or opposing team then its refreshing to see your coach fight for you. But in most cases, it's usually not a good thing so I agree. |
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Post by MisterD on Feb 15, 2015 21:38:16 GMT -5
I imagine the minute a tangible effect can be proven beyond most doubt, the benefits of working the refs will decrease.
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Post by explorerman on Feb 16, 2015 10:10:15 GMT -5
I would agree but at times I would settle for something or anything more than what happens now. Not sure if either of you were at the game, but G was the most animated toward the refs that I have seen in some time. Maybe a reflection of how bad they truly were. I really think the working the refs thing is really overblown. If it had a tangible effect or impact on the game, don't you think everyone would do it and refs would get immune. Coaches all complain to the refs, some more than others. I haven't seen anyone come up with tangible evidence that it works or doesn't. Coaches and teams build reputations with refs, in a similar way with pitchers or hitters with umpires. I really don't think that overall it helps or hurts. Sometimes, like yesterday, the refs are just incompetent or having a bad game. It happens. It is certainly not overblown. If it was why would the best coaches in the world do it consistently. Coach K is arguably the best coach of all time and starts it before the 1st media timeout is reached. Jay Wright and Chaney drops F-Bombs all the time towards refs. They aren't jumping up and down making an ass of themselves. Tony Bennett talks to the refs after he takes timeouts literally he walks out to the middle of half court to talk to refs. Guys I promise you working the refs has been around for a while. The best coaches have been doing it for years. If it didn't work they would know. Ref calls have profound effects on games. I hate to quantify but maybe 5-6 points a game on bad calls that result in shooting fouls (worth two points) and the larger one getting certain players in foul trouble which results in usually inferior players playing which is usually a decent sound of points. Coming from personal experience, I can tell you working the refs absolutely does have an impact. Whether 5-6 points actually determines the impact of the game or not is debateble but if it can result in 1 net win then it is worth doing. This isn't even going back and looking back at the results how many games did we lose by less than 5 points this year. And I didn't even mention protecting your players... |
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Post by coachd on Feb 16, 2015 11:09:46 GMT -5
Each league should be rating the individual refs. The worst-rated by the A10 coaches/ADs and the A10 Director of Officiating (needs to watch every game and come up with own rating) should be dropped from the rotation and replaced by refs with good reputations from the lower leagues or newbies. The refs are extremely well compensated for 2 hours of work - they should strive to be perfect in calling games. It does affect the integrity of the game and college sports are the last sports with any remaining integrity although that is disappearing with the incompetent and sometimes corrupt officiating.
Larry Brown taught Jay Wright most of what he knows. Wright has used that knowledge to his advantage unfortunately for the rest of the Big 5. G still needs to find that mentor that can teach him the details of how to prepare his team for consistent play, know his roster and make smart in-game decisions including working the officials. Unless the NCAA comes up with a way to challenge a few bad calls per game through video replay this will remain a problem for G.
Duren and Galloway covered up a lot of weaknesses... those weaknesses are resurfacing again.
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Post by coqui900 on Feb 16, 2015 11:40:24 GMT -5
I also think G works the refs plenty. Unless you sit right behind him there is no way of knowing. He gets very animated when someone makes a mistake on the court. Maybe not so much on a bad call. But I think he works the refs.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Feb 16, 2015 12:14:27 GMT -5
I also think G works the refs plenty. Unless you sit right behind him there is no way of knowing. He gets very animated when someone makes a mistake on the court. Maybe not so much on a bad call. But I think he works the refs. I agree that he interacts with the refs. I think that there is a difference between the way Jay Wright does it and the way Giannini does it. |
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Post by mookie on Feb 16, 2015 12:43:32 GMT -5
I also think G works the refs plenty. Unless you sit right behind him there is no way of knowing. He gets very animated when someone makes a mistake on the court. Maybe not so much on a bad call. But I think he works the refs. I agree that he interacts with the refs. I think that there is a difference between the way Jay Wright does it and the way Giannini does it. Not everyone can be Jay though...i mean the man can dress lol |
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Post by 1stflooredwards on Feb 16, 2015 12:54:29 GMT -5
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Post by golasalle on Feb 16, 2015 13:46:45 GMT -5
Not sure if either of you were at the game, but G was the most animated toward the refs that I have seen in some time. Maybe a reflection of how bad they truly were. I really think the working the refs thing is really overblown. If it had a tangible effect or impact on the game, don't you think everyone would do it and refs would get immune. Coaches all complain to the refs, some more than others. I haven't seen anyone come up with tangible evidence that it works or doesn't. Coaches and teams build reputations with refs, in a similar way with pitchers or hitters with umpires. I really don't think that overall it helps or hurts. Sometimes, like yesterday, the refs are just incompetent or having a bad game. It happens. It is certainly not overblown. If it was why would the best coaches in the world do it consistently. Coach K is arguably the best coach of all time and starts it before the 1st media timeout is reached. Jay Wright and Chaney drops F-Bombs all the time towards refs. They aren't jumping up and down making an ass of themselves. Tony Bennett talks to the refs after he takes timeouts literally he walks out to the middle of half court to talk to refs. Guys I promise you working the refs has been around for a while. The best coaches have been doing it for years. If it didn't work they would know. Ref calls have profound effects on games. I hate to quantify but maybe 5-6 points a game on bad calls that result in shooting fouls (worth two points) and the larger one getting certain players in foul trouble which results in usually inferior players playing which is usually a decent sound of points. Coming from personal experience, I can tell you working the refs absolutely does have an impact. Whether 5-6 points actually determines the impact of the game or not is debateble but if it can result in 1 net win then it is worth doing. This isn't even going back and looking back at the results how many games did we lose by less than 5 points this year. And I didn't even mention protecting your players... Just because you say it works or you believe it works doesn't mean that it does. You give examples of coaches who also have something else in common; they have very good players. Once again, you (nor has anyone else that I have seen) quantify that it has positive results. You throw around 5-6 points a game like that is a quantifiable fact that "working refs" gets you that many points. You cannot prove that is the case, and I don't think anyone can. I have seen plenty of situations where coaches "work the refs" from the start of the game and not get any calls. Each game is individual and like I said before, some refs are just bad or have bad nights. My point of this is that you have specifically blamed G for bad ref calls against La Salle during game threads and I think that is absolutely ridiculous and unfounded, but of course that hasn't stopped you before... |
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Post by coachd on Feb 16, 2015 16:54:23 GMT -5
Unfortunately the offending ref was Bill McCarthy. The other 2 didn't over-rule him. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 1:25:27 GMT -5
Overruling an associate from out of position is simply uncalled for in most circumstances, but there is certainly a protocol for it. I've seen Coachd's protocol on refs and it is not pretty. BTW, I am not much a fan of instant replay creeping into our sports, either. I still enjoy refs having to scrutinize games at their real pace.
Fouls are difficult to call because contact can go both ways, and there are stylistic differences that are called differently. As much as I complain about these things, I'm not ready for our sports to become devoid of the nuances and the human element.
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Post by coachd on Feb 17, 2015 9:45:24 GMT -5
The best officials generally work together as a team. A strong lead official will call the other 2 over in a quick huddle if he sees a blatantly obvious incorrect call, confer and then reverse it if 2 of 3 agree.
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Post by calsufan on Feb 17, 2015 13:35:10 GMT -5
The best officials generally work together as a team. A strong lead official will call the other 2 over in a quick huddle if he sees a blatantly obvious incorrect call, confer and then reverse it if 2 of 3 agree. And that's just it. Not only would it have to be blatantly obvious, incorrect call it would also have to be 1.) an egregiously bad call AND 2.) as Hykos stated, the other ref(s) would have to be in the proper position to have seen the call in question. The likelihood of 1 & 2 simultaneously occurring during a game are pretty slim. |
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Post by aswjr on Feb 17, 2015 14:57:09 GMT -5
Not sure if either of you were at the game, but G was the most animated toward the refs that I have seen in some time. Maybe a reflection of how bad they truly were. I really think the working the refs thing is really overblown. If it had a tangible effect or impact on the game, don't you think everyone would do it and refs would get immune. Coaches all complain to the refs, some more than others. I haven't seen anyone come up with tangible evidence that it works or doesn't. Coaches and teams build reputations with refs, in a similar way with pitchers or hitters with umpires. I really don't think that overall it helps or hurts. Sometimes, like yesterday, the refs are just incompetent or having a bad game. It happens. Not so much the "if" but the "how" for me. I agree with what I bolded above. I just feel that other coaches build better reputations / relationships. I agree...some others have mentioned his animation on the sideline, to be honest I think some of that just looks ridiculous. Sometimes the animation doesn't seem to have a rhyme or reason. Sometimes it looks like it's directed towards the players when they have made a mistake sometimes towards the refs. So I think it's effectiveness often times is lost. Most of the coaches that are known to work refs and are effective are the ones that are in their ears all game talking every chance they get or at least often. My humble opinion |
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Post by victoriouslasalle on Feb 17, 2015 17:06:19 GMT -5
Not so much the "if" but the "how" for me. I agree with what I bolded above. I just feel that other coaches build better reputations / relationships. I agree...some others have mentioned his animation on the sideline, to be honest I think some of that just looks ridiculous. Sometimes the animation doesn't seem to have a rhyme or reason. Sometimes it looks like it's directed towards the players when they have made a mistake sometimes towards the refs. So I think it's effectiveness often times is lost. Most of the coaches that are known to work refs and are effective are the ones that are in their ears all game talking every chance they get or at least often. My humble opinionI think you are on the right track here. Some coaches have a whole schpiel. Arguably, working the ref is an art. Perhaps the claims of influence/efects of it overblown? And, I suspect there are no stats to demonstrate the effectiveness of it (golassale). But how many folks have not in their history attended a game where you have not seen it happen at some time? A coach whines and grinds away and seemingly get there call or non call at some latter part of the game. Somebody tell me they have not seen that happen? And certainly not all efforts are rewarded but ... |
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Post by aswjr on Feb 17, 2015 20:31:15 GMT -5
I agree...some others have mentioned his animation on the sideline, to be honest I think some of that just looks ridiculous. Sometimes the animation doesn't seem to have a rhyme or reason. Sometimes it looks like it's directed towards the players when they have made a mistake sometimes towards the refs. So I think it's effectiveness often times is lost. Most of the coaches that are known to work refs and are effective are the ones that are in their ears all game talking every chance they get or at least often. My humble opinionI think you are on the right track here. Some coaches have a whole schpiel. Arguably, working the ref is an art. Perhaps the claims of influence/efects of it overblown? And, I suspect there are no stats to demonstrate the effectiveness of it (golassale). But how many folks have not in their history attended a game where you have not seen it happen at some time? A coach whines and grinds away and seemingly get there call or non call at some latter part of the game. Somebody tell me they have not seen that happen? And certainly not all efforts are rewarded but ... I look at it as the nagging wife or annoying child...after awhile you do something to appease them, because honestly you just want them to shut up...or in this case stop whining. You could even go with the slow and steady wins the race, slowly wearing down the ref. |
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Post by cjprof on Feb 17, 2015 20:32:29 GMT -5
Coaches have their own styles. The officials know this, and factor this in when they officiate. When a coach deviates from his normal game behavior it gets the official's attention! I'm not a big proponent of a coach getting "T'ed" up, but sometimes it serves a useful purpose - as a motivation technique - or letting the officials that they're not doing their job. How many saw the foul under the La Salle boards with under 10 seconds left in the Davidson game. La Salle player thrown to the floor and two officials run by down court. The game was decided and G just stands there. Let the refs know that you don't need players getting injured. Force them to hit you with a T . . . we all would have cheered from the blue backed seats. Just some comments based on umpiring high school and college baseball for 40 years.
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Post by jellybean on Feb 24, 2015 7:58:11 GMT -5
Saw G at the Palestra last night for the PCL Championship. He was sitting next to former ref Joe DeMayo and current ref (and former SJU (pa) guard) Jeff Clark.
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Post by JoeFedorowicz on Feb 24, 2015 8:18:50 GMT -5
Saw G at the Palestra last night for the PCL Championship. He was sitting next to former ref Joe DeMayo and current ref (and former SJU (pa) guard) Jeff Clark. #WorkingIt |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 12:52:49 GMT -5
Hurley has been in refs face twice today. One for a late whistle on Zack 35 yards from the basket, and another on an out of bounds call, which the refs promptly discussed and reversed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 16:05:37 GMT -5
Hurley got a bench warning. He flaunted himself at the refs a bit much. The refs aren't always wrong. Hurley should pick his moments instead of flipping out at every foul call.
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Post by calsufan on Feb 28, 2015 18:22:08 GMT -5
Hurley is annoying as hell to watch. He literally whines over everything. He was on the court so much he might as well have worn the powder blue uni. Next to Phil, he's my favorite A-10 coach to hate.
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Post by jellybean on Feb 28, 2015 18:32:53 GMT -5
Hurley is annoying as hell to watch. He literally whines over everything. He was on the court so much he might as well have worn the powder blue uni. Next to Phil, he's my favorite A-10 coach to hate. His entire staff is constantly talking to the refs. They follow the refs to the middle of the court during timeouts. What a bunch of whiners. No moving screen called and Johnnie Shuler nearly breaks a leg. The refs didn't even see he was hobbling to mid-court. I just wonder at times. URI by far is the team that reminds me of Xavier where they constantly are initiating contact. |
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