New Guards vs. Old Guards

[a10champion15]

I meant to post this awhile ago but forgot about it. I don't know if anyone really interested in taking a look but I compared the 2013-2014 #s of Duren, Garland and Mills to the career #s of Petersen Lewis plus our transfers Roberts and Price.

You might be pleasantly surprised by the numbers. I didn't expect the collection of Price, Lewis, Roberts and Lewis #s to be slightly better than Duren, Garland and Mills considering Lewis injury issues and Price and Roberts being freshmen.

2013-2014 Garland Duren Mills Total
FGA 381 353 206 940
FGM 126 147 80 353
FG% 33% 42% 39% 38%
3PA 132 142 123 397
3PM 30 58 51 139
3P% 23% 41% 41% 35%


Career Petersen Lewis Total
FGA 301 254 555
FGM 119 84 203
FG% 40% 33% 37%
3PA 210 70 280
3PM 79 16 95
3P% 38% 23% 34%

W/ Transfers

Career Petersen Lewis Price Roberts Total
FGA 301 254 126 214 895
FGM 119 84 48 91 342
FG% 40% 33% 38% 43% 38%
3PA 210 70 77 109 466
3PM 79 16 30 42 167
3P% 38% 23% 39% 39% 36%


I attached the excel sheet so you can get a better look.


Attachment Deleted

[manayunk53]

That's a nice statistical comparison. It really comes out pretty much equal. Even Lewis' stats drag down the new guards in the same way that Garland's stats drag down the old guards. Roberts' numbers look really good there.

[MisterD]

I have zero doubt I'll prefer this year's group to last year's, but that'll be more because of best fit for the system than anything else. And I'll still probably take Duren #1 if they were all available in an open draft.

[a10champion15]

Oct 17, 2014 8:53:27 GMT -5 MisterD said:

I have zero doubt I'll prefer this year's group to last year's, but that'll be more because of best fit for the system than anything else. And I'll still probably take Duren #1 if they were all available in an open draft.

Yea, thats a given. When I made this I thought but what if he took that medical redshirt.

I was just surprised to see despite Ptersen and Lewis #s last year cumulative the numbers are pretty solid. Seeing if everyone stays heathly I can really only see that number especially the FG% go up.

[MisterD]

Last year's guard shooting ...

2PT FG% (% of team attempts):
D.J. Peterson: 51.1% (6.8%)
Taylor Dunn: 50.0% (0.3%)
Tyreek Duren: 42.2% (31.8%)
Guard Avg: 39.0%
Tyrone Garland: 38.6% (37.5%)
Sam Mills: 34.9% (12.5%)
Khalid Lewis: 28.4% (11.1%)

3PT FG% (% of team attempts):
Sam Mills: 41.5% (23.2%)
Tyreek Duren: 40.8% (26.8%)
Guard Avg: 33.0%
Taylor Dunn: 30.8% (4.9%)
D.J. Peterson: 28.2% (14.7%)
Tyrone Garland: 22.7% (24.9%)
Khalid Lewis: 20.7% (5.5%)

Total FG% (% of team attempts):
Tyreek Duren: 41.6% (29.6%)
Sam Mills: 38.8% (17.3%)
D.J. Peterson: 36.6% (10.3%)
Guard Avg: 36.3%
Tyrone Garland: 33.1% (31.9%)
Taylor Dunn: 32.1% (2.3%)
Khalid Lewis: 26.2% (8.6%)

[manayunk53]

Khalid Lewis' numbers are even worse than I realized. I know you guys want to give him a pass because he was banged up last year, but I'm worried about him playing a bigger role this year. I'm looking forward to getting a good look at the new guards tonight at the open practice.

[MisterD]

I think you just throw his 2013-14 into the garbage can like it never happened and has no predictive ability. He's an unknown, not a guaranteed positive or "proven" negative.

[a10champion15]

Those numbers just reaffirm the poor decisions Garland made week in and week out. So inefficient and a defensive liability.

[MisterD]

(That said, with two 1st year PGs, I really like the idea of a potential 1/2 defensive stopper with experience for close games where you're offense/defense subbing.)

[jellybean]

Didn't someone do basically this same report after last season? Wasn't the conclusion that this group of guards was slightly better ( 1 point per game) as incoming FR and SO than last year's SR group of guards? The X factor was Stukes. How do you fairly compare him to Duren. FR to FR or FR to Duren as a SR? Another factor is that we won't have a Mills situation where he goes stretch without taking a shot. Even games where he took none or one shot from the field. That this group will take and make more 3's?

[a10champion15]

Oct 17, 2014 9:26:00 GMT -5 manayunk53 said:

Khalid Lewis' numbers are even worse than I realized. I know you guys want to give him a pass because he was banged up last year, but I'm worried about him playing a bigger role this year. I'm looking forward to getting a good look at the new guards tonight at the open practice.

I would just cut him a break for now. I have only heard positive things around him this offseason. Generally all the same comment we never got a real look at the type of player he is. He will be a valuable player.

[jellybean]

Oct 17, 2014 9:30:48 GMT -5 a10champion15 said:

Those numbers just reaffirm the poor decisions Garland made week in and week out. So inefficient and a defensive liability.

You really pound this "garland is the reason we lost" both here and on the A10 board. I and others have said he was PART of the problem. Last year was in my opinion one of G's poorest on the bench. Why is Garland singled out when Sam Mills isn't. DJ Peterson isn't? Rich Prendergast mentioned a few times on the radio broadcasts that Garland was the only one shooting the ball not because he was a gunner but because others WOULDN'T. The game at GW was perfect example.

One example I can't get out of my head is ESPN's Dan Dakich saying in the VCU game that La Salle's offense never rotates the ball. That it stayed in one half of the court for nearly the entire possession. That the team stopped looking for Jerrell Wright. Stagnation on offense.

Take a look at the Assist to Turnover ratio from last year and compare that to the opponents last year and the year before. Look at steals. I heard a famous coach say once that his job was to make the opponents uncomfortable. Did we make the opponents uncomfortable last year? VCU makes opponents uncomfortable and URI's Danny Hurley is saying that he will use fullcourt pressure this year. SLU makes opponents uncomfortable with their style.

[manayunk53]

Garland wasn't a good decision maker by any means, but I really like what you said there about opponents being too comfortable. I know you were referring to our defensive output, but I think you can apply that to the way that our offense looked all year, too. We constantly looked uncomfortable on offense, no matter who the opponent was. It didn't matter who had the ball or who was on the floor. And as much as that is a function of the players we had, in my eyes a lot of it goes back to the head coach. We looked uncomfortable and awkward in the Manhattan game to start the year, and it never got any better from there.

[a10champion15]

Oct 17, 2014 9:57:54 GMT -5 jellybean said:

Oct 17, 2014 9:30:48 GMT -5 a10champion15 said:

Those numbers just reaffirm the poor decisions Garland made week in and week out. So inefficient and a defensive liability.

You really pound this "garland is the reason we lost" both here and on the A10 board. I and others have said he was PART of the problem. Last year was in my opinion one of G's poorest on the bench. Why is Garland singled out when Sam Mills isn't. DJ Peterson isn't? Rich Prendergast mentioned a few times on the radio broadcasts that Garland was the only one shooting the ball not because he was a gunner but because others WOULDN'T. The game at GW was perfect example.

One example I can't get out of my head is ESPN's Dan Dakich saying in the VCU game that La Salle's offense never rotates the ball. That it stayed in one half of the court for nearly the entire possession. That the team stopped looking for Jerrell Wright. Stagnation on offense.

Take a look at the Assist to Turnover ratio from last year and compare that to the opponents last year and the year before. Look at steals. I heard a famous coach say once that his job was to make the opponents uncomfortable. Did we make the opponents uncomfortable last year? VCU makes opponents uncomfortable and URI's Danny Hurley is saying that he will use fullcourt pressure this year. SLU makes opponents uncomfortable with their style.

I never said Garland was the reason we lost every game. Mills could of stepped up but he never was that type of player during his entire time at La Salle so why should anyone of expected more out of him. He never was an explosive scorer. His primary responsibility was hitting threes and playing defense. Did Garland have a poor season yes and does some of the blame fall on him yes. Mills should have been better but I expected much more out of Garland than Mills. I give him credit for stepping up to the plate but it still doesn't make it any better. I have said numerous times a lot of the blame falls on G. G's strong suit is not running an offense and it showed last season. I wouldn't hesitate to say Garland was one of the worst A10 starters last year.

[MisterD]

Not worst. Least efficient.

[jellybean]

Oct 17, 2014 10:15:03 GMT -5 a10champion15 said:

Oct 17, 2014 9:57:54 GMT -5 jellybean said:

You really pound this "garland is the reason we lost" both here and on the A10 board. I and others have said he was PART of the problem. Last year was in my opinion one of G's poorest on the bench. Why is Garland singled out when Sam Mills isn't. DJ Peterson isn't? Rich Prendergast mentioned a few times on the radio broadcasts that Garland was the only one shooting the ball not because he was a gunner but because others WOULDN'T. The game at GW was perfect example.

One example I can't get out of my head is ESPN's Dan Dakich saying in the VCU game that La Salle's offense never rotates the ball. That it stayed in one half of the court for nearly the entire possession. That the team stopped looking for Jerrell Wright. Stagnation on offense.

Take a look at the Assist to Turnover ratio from last year and compare that to the opponents last year and the year before. Look at steals. I heard a famous coach say once that his job was to make the opponents uncomfortable. Did we make the opponents uncomfortable last year? VCU makes opponents uncomfortable and URI's Danny Hurley is saying that he will use fullcourt pressure this year. SLU makes opponents uncomfortable with their style.

I never said Garland was the reason we lost every game. Mills could of stepped up but he never was that type of player during his entire time at La Salle so why should anyone of expected more out of him. He never was an explosive scorer. His primary responsibility was hitting threes and playing defense. Did Garland have a poor season yes and does some of the blame fall on him yes. Mills should have been better but I expected much more out of Garland than Mills. I give him credit for stepping up to the plate but it still doesn't make it any better. I have said numerous times a lot of the blame falls on G. G's strong suit is not running an offense and it showed last season. I wouldn't hesitate to say Garland was one of the worst A10 starters last year.

OMG I don't where to begin. Mills gets a free pass because expectations for him were so low essentially. You are kidding right? Mills was nonexistent at times. You can't play 4 on 5 in basketball where one player can make a huge difference. Why couldn't the coach get MORE out of Mills? Mills was the ONLY legit outside shooter out there. If he is not attempting a shot or making the defense play him what good is he? Where was he when Wright would get double teamed in the post? He was in no position for Wright to kick it back to him. His feet were in cement.

Mills was recruited by ACC and SEC teams. Expectations were high for him. Good kid. Glad he came to La Salle but he was a huge reason we underperformed because he was comfortable NOT being the go to guy.

[blueandgold]

I agree with jellybean about rotating the ball. Really there were five primary factors going against us last year (IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER):

1) poor shooting across the board for our guards
2) the expectation of relying on Garland (an inefficient, volume shooter) - whose game was getting to the rack (which every defense knew to expect/defend after the SW Philly Floater) and never about perimiter shooting - to help replace Galloway's offense
3) injuries, and guys trying to play through them (contributing to #1 above)
4) stagnant offense / rotating the ball
5) only two usable bigs

The guard shooting comparisons are interesting. If you factor in that Price was playing in a tougher league as a freshman and got hurt during the year, and Roberts was relied on more than most freshmen - add in a year to improve themselves.. and consider (for example) the improvement in shooting percentages Galloway experienced between South Carolina and La Salle (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/46071/ramon-galloway)... Also factor in improvement in Khalid Lewis' shooting (because of last year's injuries, and also because really it should only go up from 26-30%)... The unknown as G has indicated is Amar and Johnnie shooting the ball. You have to feel good, though, about shooting abilities of our guards this year vs. a year ago.

You also have to feel good about everything we are hearing in terms of Zack and Wright, plus Washington being able to give us another quality big.

I am not on the NCAA bandwagon.. but I think a 19 or 20-win season is not an unreasonable expectation barring major injury.

By the way, for those curious, word is that Garland is entering the D-League draft (http://www.ridiculousupside.com/2014/10/16/6988619/former-la-salle-stud-tyrone-garland-heading-for-2014-nba-d-league-draft).

[manayunk53]

Peterson didn't want the ball either, for what it's worth.

[MisterD]

Oct 17, 2014 11:53:51 GMT -5 jellybean said:

OMG I don't where to begin. Mills gets a free pass because expectations for him were so low essentially. You are kidding right? Mills was nonexistent at times. You can't play 4 on 5 in basketball where one player can make a huge difference. Why couldn't the coach get MORE out of Mills? Mills was the ONLY legit outside shooter out there. If he is not attempting a shot or making the defense play him what good is he? Where was he when Wright would get double teamed in the post? He was in no position for Wright to kick it back to him. His feet were in cement.

Mills was recruited by ACC and SEC teams. Expectations were high for him. Good kid. Glad he came to La Salle but he was a huge reason we underperformed because he was comfortable NOT being the go to guy.

That's a dumb complaint. Mills was, by your admission, a strong role player (outside the arc and defensive stopper). When a team goes bad, its not because your strong role player didn't magically become a different guy.

[lwc4591]

Let's be honest T.Garland was a good player when attacking the rim but couldn't shoot very well and was weak on defense. S. Mills was a very average offensive player who appeared afraid to take over or even shoot often enough to make other teams pay more attention but played sound defense. T. Duren was easily the best of the three players but was hobbled a good part of the season. DJ and Khalid just flat out struggled most of the season. I have to believe that this seasons group is leaps and bounds above last seasons guards. Number one they shoot better, number two they are much more physical and can give you something off the glass, number three Khalid has had a year to get healthy and adjust to higher caliber players day in and day out. Only big question is the two "S" players (Stukes and Shuler)and how they handle the A10 which none of us know at this point. Talent wise this is best team Coach G has had top to bottom no matter how you spin it.

[jellybean]

Mills was not recruited as a role player. He was your #2 guard. Someone who could score double digits and shoot the 3. Defense was a big added plus. He unfortunately subjugated his role due to his personality most likely and became a role player. Role players are fine for your 5th starter or off the bench but not when you are counted upon as a Sr to take a major role in putting points on the board.

When Galloway graduated who was counted on to be the outside shooter to open the floor for Garland and Mills? Garland and Mills? Not their job or what they do best.

[MisterD]

I'm not sure how Mills wasn't our "5th starter" behind Duren, Garland, Zack and Wright.

[lasalle89]

What are we worried about? Jameer worked our guys out this summer didn't he?

[luhoopsfan]

I did a pretty hefty analysis on player efficiency and game impact following last season. It was apparent that Garland, as a replacement to Galloway, was a dramatically inefficient in terms of points per possession for the team because of his lack of efficiency as a player and his contribution rate being so much higher than in the prior year. It boiled down to that if some of our more efficient offensive players had taken more shots, the team's efficiency on offense likely would have improved by 4 or 5 points per game. As we all know, there were at least 5 or 6 losses that came down to 1 possession where an extra 4 or 5 points would have been a difference in the outcome and likely made a huge impact on our season's prospects for the postseason, even if it was an NIT bid instead of an NCAA bid.

I will try and find the analysis if I have time

[manayunk53]

Hopefully we will be able to move the ball around better this year and get better looks than we did last year. We were way too reliant on the transition game. Theoretically, we could look like an entirely different team on offense this year with these new faces in the back court.

[broderickpresident]

Oct 17, 2014 12:12:07 GMT -5 blueandgold said:

The guard shooting comparisons are interesting. If you factor in that Price was playing in a tougher league as a freshman and got hurt during the year,

One thing to bear in mind is that while the SEC undeniably has better athletes, I'm not necessarily sure it's better basketball than the A-10, especially when it comes to perimeter play.

Further, Price's great per minute production came against a relatively weak non-conference slate (his biggest game was in a 2-OT loss to an 8-22 URI team, which was actually one of the stronger teams on Auburn's non-con slate). He struggled in brief minutes against the likes of Dayton, URI and Murray State.

In non-con games, Price played 179 minutes and drained 19-36 3's (27-59 total FG). In SEC games, he played 206 minutes and made 10-39 3's (19-63 total FG). Granted, he was reportedly playing hurt during the conference season.
It was promising that he scored 12 points against #7 Florida, though.

I am very hopeful he will be an all-conference type player this season, but the keys will be consistency with his shot and a commitment to defense.

No matter what, it feels like our perimeter shooting HAS to be better than it was last year, but replacing a 4-year PG like Duren will not be easy. Will our guards be able to feed our bigs the type of easy looks they've grown accustomed to? Will the new set of guards be able to get into the teeth of the D and draw defenders? For all of Garland's flaws last year, he and TD could break down a D. We don't have a single returning player we know can do that right now.

[lasalle69bestever]

My first preseason post:
I am firmly in the camp that Mills disappeared quite often last year and, yes, resulted in 4 against 5 situations since he would not/was afraid to shoot. I posted that over and over last year. I'm giving Lewis a pass based on G's comments.
The best thing I've heard so far is the (apparent) improvement of Washington. Because I'm not concerned about the qualities of Roberts and Price. Also because I think Stukes and Shuler will be fine point guards sharing time. I'm looking for at least NIT and hopefully as NCAA bid.
IMO, Jerrell and Zack are gonna really lead and will not settle for anything but maximum effort. When you combine that with talent, it makes one feel warm all over.

[manayunk53]

I just got home from the open practice.

My thoughts:

Khalid Lewis looked as bad as I had feared. I'm really worried about him being on the floor a lot this year.

Cleon Roberts looked awesome. Huge bright spot - he could be great for us.

Tony Washington looked very good too. Slim guy but long and looked good on both ends of the floor.

Steve Zack's right arm was heavily bandaged.

Jermaine Davis was MIA.

[jellybean]

I too just returned from the open practice.

My thoughts keeping in mind that it is the 7th practice of the year.

I thought Lewis and Shuler were step above Stukes. They all need to finish. Shuler is lightning quick with and without the ball. G said he is tough as nails and a good shooter. I like to hear that.

I think Cleon Roberts missed every shot I saw him take. I was surprised at his ball handling. Very Good for a big guy. He was yelled at once by G who told him not to sulk.

Jordan Price reminds me a little of Earl Pettis and Ramone Galloway. He knows he can scorer and like Pettis played that old man game. I thought by far he had the best outside shot.

Jerrell Wright played as good as usual but I saw him lead the break once, Looked like he improved his ball handling.

Steve Zack hit some 15 footers but also missed some shots he needs to make. It was nice to see him and Tony Washington battle in the paint. Speaking of Tony Washington, there is lots to like. He is still a work in process but he has a lot of tools. I liked his footwork and just his ability to get his shot off around the basket against Wright and Zack. I looked at him standing next to Steve and thought to myself what will he look like in 3-4 years if he works in the weight room like Steve? He is like those SEC type forwards that you saw at LSU and Alabama in the old days.

Yevgen is amazing. He sees the game so well. It's like he's 2 or 3 passes ahead of the game. He is so patience will the ball. You have to love some aspects of the European game. BTW, he is a solid 6-7 225. IMO , he is an inch smaller and 20 pounds lighter than Wright but he battles in the paint. Very excited about him. He also can score with both hands around the basket. Outstanding ball handling and passing.

Davis was MIA and OJ Lewis was not there. Both on the roster that was printed.

Thanks to Bill Raftery for lending his name, time and enthusiasm to the event. Thanks to all at La Salle who had a hand in this event.

[jellybean]

Great to see Donnie Carr, Doug Overton and Lionel Simmons sitting in the front row for the practice.